Posted on 06/27/2017 4:25:56 PM PDT by Pilgrim's Progress
We are going to go through this book in a very slow fashion - no hurry.
This subject is completely a matter of faith. Those that reject or do not possess a particular preference for the King James Bible are welcome to visit and participate - but this is not an argument thread. I am not responsible to convince anyone against his or her will.
Either you have faith in a God that is able to preserve His Word or you do not - but you are not going to convince us to reject our faith that the King James Bible is the ONLY Bible that God is blessing for the English Speaking people. And He has been doing it for the past 406 years
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Oh yeah, like in the Old Testament when He blessed the Egyptians, the Amalekites, the Edomites, the Canaanites, the Syrians, the Moabites, the Ammonites, the Midianites, the Philistines, the Assyrians and the Babylonians with His Word in their languages.
Thanks, for the reminder I completely forgot about that.
Anyone who wishes to know why it is my "only" bible can read it, or perhaps read the Epistle Dedcatory, which sets out its provenance in detail.
Howerver, there are rare times, usually times of confusion or inward struggle, when I turn to my second Bible: the Greek Textus receptus, which has also been my companion for over 50 years. (Since 1964, according to the date I wrote on the flyleaf).
And finally, on the almost vanishingly rare occasions when I am troubled by a text in the OT, I turn to the one other version I trust - the Septuagint - whose accuracy has been vindicated by the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Peshitta, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
One down, about a thousand more to go ...
One thing I will say ... none of them have read or understood the translators preface to the original KJV ... most of the main tenants of KJVO are demolished in that short preface.
If I was invited by a very wealthy person to his home to partake of a seven-course meal and was told, "This meal was prepared by the greatest Chefs in the world using only the finest ingredients available, but there's one catch, the meal has a very small trace of cyanide in it, but other than that this meal is wonderful!"
I like most sane people would pass on that seven-course meal.
If your Bible replaces the word "God" with the word "gods" in this verse:
Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
Your eating from a meal with a very small trace of cyanide in it. If you have no problem with that small trace of cyanide, then Bon-appetit!
Daniel 3:25
I posted eight verses in which a modern Bible version clearly and unambiguously affirmed the divinity of Jesus Christ. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are not foolish enough to think posting one verse from the Old Testament without explanation somehow magically nullifies the other eight.
So what is the purpose of this sudden change of subject? May I take it as tacit acceptance that when KJV-onlyists claim modern versions deny the deity of Christ, they have been spreading lies?
Here is my earlier post which you quoted: He also blessed numerous other translations in numerous other languages.
“Oh yeah, like in the Old Testament when He blessed the Egyptians, the Amalekites, the Edomites, the Canaanites, the Syrians, the Moabites, the Ammonites, the Midianites, the Philistines, the Assyrians and the Babylonians with His Word in their languages... Thanks, for the reminder I completely forgot about that.”
How long are you going to strive against the Holy Spirit to hinder the truth? Must the Lord touch your health, or bring some other judgment on you to reprove and correct your stubborn pride and mockery?
These people are ancient ones with languages that do not even exist today. And God even spared some from among these accursed nations. Rahab, a prostitute among the Canaanite people of Jericho, was spared and even in the lineage of Christ. So was Ruth, the Moabite woman. She is the only woman the scripture specifically calls a “virtuous woman.”
Much of the Old Testament was available in Aramaic, which was widely spoken at various times in Syria and Babylon. In fact, some of the original words of scripture in both the Old and New Testaments were Aramaic, and were later translated into Hebrew, Greek, and English. So, yes, these people did receive the Word of God in their own tongue.
But you are speaking about Old Testament times. In the New Testament we see the word of God being brought to many other languages before English even existed:
Acts 2:4 (KJV)
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
And God has determined that He will save people from all nations AND languages:
Revelation 5:9 (KJV)
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
He does not require people to learn Greek, Hebrew, OR English, including the archaic English of the KJV in order to be saved. Instead He commanded His disciples to “go.”
The Bible describes people such as yourself with passages like this:
1 Timothy 1:6-7 (KJV)
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Since I’ve NEVER in my life heard anyone, outside of someone explaining the old, archaic language used in passages like this one, communicate with terms like “jangling,” I will provide the NKJV for anyone else following this thread, even though you and other mockers like you may harden your hearts against the truth:
1 Timothy 1:6-7 NKJV
from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
The Greek word that KJV translates as “vain jangling” is Mataiologia. (This is used only on this one occasion in the scriptures.) It derives from Mataiologos (which is also used only once, in Titus). You may recognize the “logos” part of this word, which means “word.” There is a lot more to the concept of logos than a simple word-to-word translation. And this is one of the reasons that the KJV translators specifically explained in their preface that they did NOT use a word-for-word method.
A person may “jangle” their keys, but in modern English this word has no significance or meaning in regard to the words spoken as the original scriptures DID. And, that according to the Bible which you claim to believe, makes your insistence on KJV ONLY, barbaric.
The first part of this word comes from Mataios, which can be defined as follows:
Definition
1. devoid of force, truth, success, result
2. useless, of no purpose
See http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/mataios.html .
Nowhere in the Greek is any implication that the false teachers Paul was describing sounded like “jangling” in the sense of today’s dictionary meaning. To understand this verse requires either referring back to the Greek or consulting a dictionary (which turns out to be not very helpful).
But according to KJV-ONLY types such as yourself, it is Bibles like NKJV that “add to the Word of God.” You are just wrong. You are stubbornly resisting the Spirit of God with the same religious and prideful fervor of the apostate Pharisees who opposed Christ.
The translators of the KJV themselves, as I’ve quoted, did not place their final translation nor any earlier edition of it, above correction. They did not consider themselves prophets but translators, just as they said of the 70 who translated the Septuagint.
Claiming that God divinely controlled the translation of the KJV so that no errors could be made is false. They made multiple revisions. Do you think the original autographs of Paul, Peter, or John went through many drafts before becoming scriptures? Or did they speak, moved by the Holy Spirit? Where are the infallible jots and tiddles of the KJV? Did they pass away?
The KJV is a TRANSLATION of scripture, making it the Word of God. I’ve already quoted the KJV translators on this. THEY do not agree with you or your KJV-ONLY group.
God has used the KJV in a great way for centuries. He also used the Word of God in other languages before English even existed. And He continues to use TRANSLATIONS of His Holy Word today in modern, correctly-spelled and -punctuated, English. There is no sacrosanct validity to insisting that God can ONLY bless passages like 1 Timothy 1:6-7 when using the term “jangling” rather than the accurately translated “idle words.”
Your arguments are wrong, divisive, and contrary to the Word of God. And you are inviting the judgment of God upon yourself by continuing on this path.
What if there are many more verses that "affirmed the divinity of Jesus Christ" but your Bible only gives you eight? Would you feel satisfied that you're receiving all the counsel of God?
Acts 20:27
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Not me, I think I'll stay in the "foolish" column and get everything God has for me, thank you very much.
These people existed then, and so did their languages, according to you God has blessed numerous people today with His word in thier languages. And God's word teaches us He does not change.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
If God gives His word to people today in numerous languages, would he not have also given it to the people in those days in numerous languages? And if not, why not?
The specific number doesn't make it more or less true. Only one would refute the KJV-only lie definitively.
Now truth has degrees of more or less, there's no absolute truth. This belief is where we get today's moral relativism. What is truth for you is not truth for me. The truth is what each individual wants it to be for their own self.
These people are ancient ones with languages that do not even exist today
These people existed then, and so did their languages, according to you God has blessed numerous people today with His word in their languages. And God's word teaches us He does not change.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
If God gives His word to people today in numerous languages, would he not have also given it to the people in those days in numerous languages? And if not, why not?
I said the number doesn't make truth more or less true. From this you conclude that I think it does?
Good grief, the KJV-only Illiteracy Squad is really doing the rounds in this thread.
"The specific number doesn't make it more or less true
If what you really wanted to say was,
the number doesn't make truth more or less true.
I suggest next time you think a little harder before replying, you'll do a better job of hiding your true agenda.
No, by "it" I meant what I actually said: that the divinity of Christ (which is, of course, a truth) is not made "more or less true" by the number of times it is affirmed.
You then twisted my meaning to falsely accuse me of being a truth relativist—the exact opposite of my meaning. You are now again twisting my meaning to pretend you were right all along about what I said.
Try for a little consistency, or failing that, at least not lying any more.
lol, your like the modern Bible per-versions you read, if the modern translators get caught with their words turning the truth into a lie, it’s no problem for them to just come out with an updated per-version and see if the public buys that one. How many times in the last 20 years have the per-versions been “revised” to make them “more accurate” I lost count?
“Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
“If God gives His word to people today in numerous languages, would he not have also given it to the people in those days in numerous languages? And if not, why not?”
Do you not err because you do not know the scriptures?
The Bible was written by many different men over several centuries. It was not even complete during those days in which God drove out the inhabitants of Canaan. Very little was written by the time Joshua led Israel into that land.
There were centuries in which God revealed Himself in other ways, before there was any written Word at all. We have an acknowledgment about men like Enoch and Melchizedek, who both lived long before Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Job treasured God’s Word, even though none of the Bible had been written at that time.
God divided the languages in Babel to stop the rebellion and the anti-Christ system. See Genesis 11.
He did the opposite at Pentecost with the gift of tongues that broke down the language barriers to spread the Gospel. The pattern there was revelation to everyone in their own native language. He commanded the disciples to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel. See Luke 24, and Acts 2.
God is unchanging, but He has progressively revealed Himself down through history so that we now have a greater understanding of who He is. Even the prophets did not understand exactly God’s plan of redemption, and He has given us today more than they had.
Hebrews 1:1-3 (KJV)
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
[For those unfamiliar with the archaic language of this text, the terms “sundry” and “divers” mean “various” and “diverse.”]
1 Peter 1:10-11 (KJV)
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
[Enquired means inquired, in the vernacular.]
There were times in history when God’s Word was scarce.
2 Kings 22:8, 10, 11 (KJV)
And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it...
And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.
[”Rent” his clothes meant he tore them. He did not lend them out for money.]
1 Samuel 3:1 (KJV)
And the child Samuel ministered unto the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was precious in those days; there was no open vision.
Amos 8:11 (KJV)
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord.
But God promised a day would come when the Word of God would be abundant and all would know Him.
Hebrews 8:11 (KJV)
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[Neighbour is neighbor in modern English spelling.]
God does not change. His Word does not change. But people and languages do. So God has provided His Word in modern languages and dialects so that people can know Him, the unchanging God.
A growing knowledge of the Lord is consistent with His unchanging nature. Therefore, you greatly err.
Yes He is unchanging and He has revealed Himself over time. But in the Old Testament He only revealed Himself over time to one people and in only one language, Hebrew.
Why didn't He reveal Himself over time to all the other peoples of that time in their language too?
He is the same God today as He was back then. His grace is the same, His mercy is the same, His love is the same, everything's the same.
So wouldn't God want all peoples in ancient days to get know Him over time, just like the ancient Hebrews got to know Him over time?
God could have spoken to all the ancient peoples of those days and have them write His words in their languages, but He did not, why?
I will take your sudden change of subject as a tacit admission that you were, in fact, misrepresenting me. Thank you.
Same reason I don't run out and buy every new modern Bible per-version that they try to sell as "The new and improved Bible translation"
“But in the Old Testament He only revealed Himself over time to one people and in only one language, Hebrew.”
No. He spoke through prophets who were not all just Hebrew-speaking. The scripture is filled with example after example of God being the God of the Gentiles, just as He is of the Jews, in both the Old and New Testaments.
Your whole premise is flawed. It is a detestable insult to the grace of God in that you infer favoritism on God’s part.
Acts 10:34-35 (KJV)
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
How many nations was that again, Peter? EVERY NATION. Wow.
Perhaps we should rename the title of this thread to “Lies, fabrications, and WhatNot.”
“God could have spoken to all the ancient peoples of those days and have them write His words in their languages, but He did not, why?”
Again, you err because you do not know the scriptures. As I’ve shown, there were prophets among the nations before the canon of scriptures were complete. And God raised up many prophets who addressed the Gentiles. God did not leave Himself without witness.
God sent prophets to Sidonians and Syrians:
Luke 4:25-27 (KJV)
But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
God ordained for people out of all nations to seek Him and find Him:
Acts 17:24-27 (KJV)
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.
God sent Jonah to the Babylonian city of Nineveh:
Jonah 1:2 & 4:11 (KJV)
Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me...
And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
[A score is ten. God spared sixty-thousand people in Nineveh.]
God set apart Israel to be a light to the Gentiles, for all of the nations of the earth to be blessed, and that God would be glorified by all people:
Genesis 18:18 (KJV)
Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Genesis 22:18 (KJV)
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Exodus 9:16 (KJV)
And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Joshua 2:8-11 (KJV)
And before they were laid down, she came up unto them upon the roof;
And she said unto the men, I know that the Lord hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
Joshua 4:23-24 (KJV)
For the Lord your God dried up the waters of Jordan from before you, until ye were passed over, as the Lord your God did to the Red sea, which he dried up from before us, until we were gone over:
That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the Lord, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the Lord your God for ever.
Psalm 22:27 (KJV)
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
There were periods of time in which Hebrew was NOT the dominate language of Israel. They were captives in Babylon and learned Aramaic. And even Hebrew itself changed over the centuries (much like modern English) during which the Old Testament was written.
2 Kings 18:26 (KJV)
Then said Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebna, and Joah, unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, to thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand it: and talk not with us in the Jews’ language in the ears of the people that are on the wall.
Ezra 4:7 (KJV)
And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue.
Judges 12:5-6 (KJV)
And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;
Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.
1 Samuel 9:9 (KJV)
(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)
Psalm 117:1 (KJV)
O praise the Lord, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people.
So, for those who have ears to hear, God was always at work, saving Jews and Gentiles. The Word of God was proclaimed in the dominant languages of the world down through history. The world heard of God’s mighty power through the work He was doing in Israel. This message crossed language barriers and caused many non-Hebrews to be brought to the Lord. There were periods of time in which the predominant language of Jews was not Hebrew. And God used factors such as this to spread His fame and His Word throughout the Earth so that all people could fear Him, seek Him, and glorify Him.
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