Pre-Vatican II [Non Caucus Open thread]

[Trad Bishop]

First of all, today is the Feast Day of the Blessed Trinity, and so we would wish all of you a Happy Feast Day, and in particular we would wish the Eternal Father a Happy Father's Day!

For those who are unaware or need to be reminded, belief in a Trinitarian God, that is Three Persons, One God, comes to us from our elder brothers and sisters in the faith, the Jews. The belief in the Trinitarian God as described is the universally accepted criteria to receive and accept the designation as a true Christian. So we Catholics should be very wary of those who emphasize one person of the Trinity to the exclusion of the other two such as the Charismatics. Unfortunately, the Jews' rejection of Jesus as their Messiah means that they cut out the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus, from their belief system. We should indeed pray for them. As Scripture designates them as the Chosen People/Elect especially as concerns St. Matthew 24:22: "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: But for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." Because they are still looking for a Messiah there's a real and present danger that they will accept the antichrist in their obduracy in accepting the True Christ. As 2 Thessalonians 2:8~11 warrants: "And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the Spirit of His mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming, him, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the Truth, that they might be saved. Therefore, God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have believed the Truth, but have consented to iniquity."

The above applies across the board, especially to us Catholics who may be becoming more and more complacent as to our election having been "grafted in". See Romans 11, re: grafted in. Pope St. John Paul II is the one who referred to the Jews as our elder brothers and sisters in the faith based upon Romans 11. He could do so confidently and truthfully because of this "ingrafting". When you graft you make a slit in the mother plant, cut a slip from the plant to be grafted in, and then seal up the mother plant with the graft in it. The Gentiles who were, in this method, allowed to partake of what was coming up from the roots of this tree, the Jewish faith, which was originally planted by God Himself using Abraham and his seed, contained the seed of Christ.

Don't let the protestants who rail against "replacement theology" in Catholics acuse you of such. If anyone is playing the role of replacers, it's the Protestants. Their imitation of Jacob, the supplanter, in pretending that the Catholics who preceded them by 1500 years are not their elder brothers and sisters in the faith, and with how they have changed the gospel, they have usurped the faith rather than being grafted in. It's not replacement, it's grafting in. We, as Catholics, absolutely are an organic outgrowth of the original Jewish faith through Christ and His Death on the tree. So now, these branches all worship the Blessed Trinity.

Therefore, it is vitally important that your Bible be the Douay-Rheims so that you know that you have the Truth. Example: St. Luke 1:28: "And the Angel being come in, said unto Her, hail full of grace, the Lord is with Thee: Blessed art Thou among women." St. Gabriel, God's Messenger not only to Our Lady but to the prophet Daniel, on behalf of God, was the first to proclaim Her Blessed among women. Compare this to one protestant version of "Hail, o highly favored daughter, the Lord is with you." Theologically, there is so much difference that the protestants have no problem bashing Mary, calling Her a terrible sinner, saying She had other children, when they confess only to the virgin conception, everthing BUT blessed, which was God's designation for Her. Whereas we Catholics believe in the Blessed Virgin Mary as Ever Virgin. The True Church, Catholic, teaches us that Mary was a physically intact virgin both before and after conception as well as both before and after giving birth. This is a true and the truth of the virgin birth. How different. 1 John 4:3 is very clear: "And every spirit that dissolves Jesus, is not of God: And this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he comes and he is now already in the world." In dissolving the virgin birth and reducing it to a virgin conception, is tantamount to dissolving Jesus. From this example it's not difficult to see that all should be very careful to know and to keep the pre-Vatican II teachings of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church lest they also fall for the Antichrist. Remember, the devil will try to fool even the Elect.

Our Reason and Purpose for This New Caucus Designation

We must always remember that the devil knows Scripture frontwards and backwards and from side to side. In recognition of that, we know that he recognizes what Jesus said in St. Matthew 12:25: ..."Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Satan has used Jesus' Words against Him and against His Church on many occasions. Most recently, with Vatican II he has managed to set up a number of divisions in Christ's True Church. Most obviously among them are Novus Ordo Catholics, Sede Vacantis, St. Pius X, Fraternal Order of St. Peter, The Resistance, CRMI, and a myriad of Episcopal churches (a parish or parishes claiming to be the True Church run either by a priest or a Bishop as a separate entity, aka Independants). He has even caused divisions within these divisions. Like the Orthodox, it would seem true for most Bishops that they each consider themselves a pope with papal authority to bind and loose. This certainly can in no one way, shape, manner or form be called 'Unity' as Jesus had with and through His Apostles.

In recognition of the above, we desire and propose to go back to the time of Vatican II, and at least informally to remove these walls of division. Before Vatican II there was no battle in the Western Church between Novus Ordo and Traditional, between Sede Vacantis and those loyal to the Pope, between SSPX and FSSP, between CRMI and Independants, and so forth. Pre-Vatican II those divisions didn't exist. Other divisions exist in the Novus Ordo Church, I.e., Liberals versus Conservatives, Novus Ordo Mass versus Traditional Mass, those who give Francis I legitamcy and those that consider him an anti-Pope, and those who would return to Pope John Paul II and not contend with Francis I and his dismantling of the biblical tenants of the Catholic Faith such as allowing divorced and remarried people to come back to the Sacraments without leaving as Jesus Himself said in St. Matthew 19, their adulturous relationship.

Considering that the Church on Earth has been since Abraham, considered as the extention of God's reign to the Earth through Abraham, Moses, Issac, Jacob, etc. the high priests of the Jewish temple and through St. Peter and his true successors, all of whom have represented the sceptre of God's Rule on Earth, we allow that He is still reigning, in spite of Benedict XVI and Francis I through the spirit and memory of Pope St. John Paul II and the other true popes that were his predecesors. We desire to put division and strife aside including over the Pope, and look forward to who ever God is going to send in fulfillment of Apocalypse 11 as His representatives, the Witnesses, in what St. Paul refers to in his letter to the Hebrews 9:10: ..."And divers washings, and justices of the flesh laid on them until the time of correction." We see no reason not to use the Tridentine Mass even in English, so that we once again have one Mass, the one that was handed down to us by our forefathers in the early Church to help us to hang on to all of the truths that it contains and teaches every time that it is said, that were lost in the Novus Ordo Mass. With Mass for most people being only a once a week ritual, it should be the one that most reflects our core beliefs with the Eucharist being the center and focus of our worship and our faith. This would be in accordance with "Redemptionis Sacramentum", encyclical by Pope St. John Paul II, which was promulgated April 23, 2001. It included doing away with Communion under both species at every Mass and Communion in the hand. Let us once again be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic and go back to the primitive rule.

We quote from the Religion Moderator as concerns caucuses in general: "Caucus labels exist only for the purpose of avoiding unwanted disruptions on Religion Forum threads. The terms used in a Caucus label are not necessarily precise with reference to Canon Law, Theology or even dictionaries but are intended to communicate briefly who should or should not post on a thread.

A Reply Post may be removed from a Caucus thread if the Moderator recognizes the poster as a non-member.

If you believe a poster is not a member of the Caucus, or if you believe the article or reply posts are mentioning beliefs of the non-members of the Caucus let me know by Freepmail and I will followup as soon as possible.

Do not disturb the Caucus.

Catholic Caucus Designations

The "Catholic Caucus" designation excludes Sede Vacantis, Orthodox, SSPX, and inactive Catholics." (We would propose to change this to non pre-Vatican II and non Conservative or inactive Catholics.)

"Any of the excluded groups may be included on a particular thread by extending the label, e.g. "Catholic/Orthodox Caucus" or "Cath/SV/SSPX Caucus".

Additionally, the label " All Catholic" may be used to include any Freeper who self identifies as a Catholic regardless of his attitude about the Pope, Papal, Infallibility, Vatican II, or Schisms or sects.

The SSPX will be included by default on a Catholic Caucus when (and if) Bishop Fellay accepts the olive branch offered."

[metmom]

I assume this has the approval of the owner or his mods? And it doesn’t address my concern about the lurkers here who are always looking to break down the Caucus designation even for something as minor as mentioning Luther in passing.

This thread is disqualified for the caucus label because the thread itself criticizes non-Catholic denominations.

It has nothing to do with anyone searching for a random mention of Luther in passing in a reply.

Do try to get with the program.

[metmom]

Our intent is to unify in love those who want to imitate Christ.

*OUR* intent?

Just who all are you representing?

And how many of you all are posting here under your screen name?

[metmom]

Our intent is to unify in love those who want to imitate Christ.

*OUR* intent?

Just who all are you representing?

And how many of you all are posting here under your screen name?

[metmom]

Theologically, there is so much difference that the protestants have no problem bashing Mary, calling Her a terrible sinner, saying She had other children, when they confess only to the virgin conception, everthing BUT blessed, which was God's designation for Her.

First off, just who called her a *terrible* sinner?

Please provide a link.

So having other children beside Jesus was NOT a blessing?

Do you not think that children are a blessing from God?

[ebb tide]

Please go back and read and reread what we said we were going to do and not do in this Caucus.

Once again who are "we"?

A few questions:

Are you a bishop?

Are you a Catholic bishop? If yes, who consecrated you a bishop?

If you are not a catholic bishop, who is your "trad bishop" that you answer to?

[Jim Robinson]

I have no idea what you’re talking about, but you don’t get to change or establish your own rules. And we’re not going to have sub caucus designations. And this thread does not qualify for the Catholic caucus label anyway as you mention other religions/denominations/faiths.

RM will correct me if I’m wrong.

[ebb tide]

I see your new proposed caucus has been approved:

[Non Caucus Open thread]

Well done, bishop.

[Trad Bishop]

You sir, can rest assured, I do not report to you. You have a pseudonym of ebb tide. Who do you report to? My ultimate reporting responsibility is to the Triune Godhead Whom all Catholics and Christians love and adore whose Feast Day we celebrate today. How about you? Every Bishop is responsible to the children of God to speak to them in His Name. Therefore, it is customary to acknowledge by using the term ‘We’ that he is only Christ's instrument and doesn't speak for himself. It puts the onus on me to watch what I say.

[ebb tide]

My ultimate reporting responsibility is to the Triune Godhead Whom all Catholics and Christians love and adore whose Feast Day we celebrate today.

What about it? I post the postcommunion prayer of Trinity Sunday and you jump on me like a flea on a hound dog.

Go back to Pope Michael and his mother.

[ebb tide]

Every Bishop is responsible to the children of God to speak to them in His Name. Therefore, it is customary to acknowledge by using the term ‘We’ that he is only Christ's instrument and doesn't speak for himself. It puts the onus on me to watch what I say.

So are you a bishop or not? Please be truthful with your answer.

[ealgeone]

As you mention Protestants you’ve negated the caucus thread protection. You may want to reference the caucus thread rules.

[fatima]

Oh great the Catholic Cult thread has graduated to a Cult Bishop.Swim on.

[Religion Moderator]

Thank you Jim, your response is correct.

I changed the caucus designation to what can now be seen after the title.

Trad Bishop: This thread in no way fits a caucus designation.

You have been here at FR for 13 days and have not made yourself aware of the guidelines established for the Religion Forum, yet you want to rewrite them.

That will not happen.

Read and watch for a while.

[ebb tide]

OK . I think I have narrowed it down.

Are you either Jean-Michel Faure or Miguel Ferreira da Costa?

Do you report to Bishop Richard Williamson?

[ebb tide]

Do you have a problem with what you describe as a “Catholic Cult”?

Aren’t you a Catholic?

[metmom]

LOL!

[boatbums]

I appreciate the clarification. Thank you.

[miss marmelstein]

So you didn’t have permission to do this, you took it upon yourself and brought out the usual miscreants plus the owner of the site. Good going!

Phew.