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Pre-Vatican II [Non Caucus Open thread]

Posted on 06/11/2017 12:57:49 PM PDT by Trad Bishop

First of all, today is the Feast Day of the Blessed Trinity, and so we would wish all of you a Happy Feast Day, and in particular we would wish the Eternal Father a Happy Father's Day!

For those who are unaware or need to be reminded, belief in a Trinitarian God, that is Three Persons, One God, comes to us from our elder brothers and sisters in the faith, the Jews. The belief in the Trinitarian God as described is the universally accepted criteria to receive and accept the designation as a true Christian. So we Catholics should be very wary of those who emphasize one person of the Trinity to the exclusion of the other two such as the Charismatics. Unfortunately, the Jews' rejection of Jesus as their Messiah means that they cut out the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus, from their belief system. We should indeed pray for them. As Scripture designates them as the Chosen People/Elect especially as concerns St. Matthew 24:22: "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: But for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." Because they are still looking for a Messiah there's a real and present danger that they will accept the antichrist in their obduracy in accepting the True Christ. As 2 Thessalonians 2:8~11 warrants: "And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the Spirit of His mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming, him, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the Truth, that they might be saved. Therefore, God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have believed the Truth, but have consented to iniquity."

The above applies across the board, especially to us Catholics who may be becoming more and more complacent as to our election having been "grafted in". See Romans 11, re: grafted in. Pope St. John Paul II is the one who referred to the Jews as our elder brothers and sisters in the faith based upon Romans 11. He could do so confidently and truthfully because of this "ingrafting". When you graft you make a slit in the mother plant, cut a slip from the plant to be grafted in, and then seal up the mother plant with the graft in it. The Gentiles who were, in this method, allowed to partake of what was coming up from the roots of this tree, the Jewish faith, which was originally planted by God Himself using Abraham and his seed, contained the seed of Christ.

Don't let the protestants who rail against "replacement theology" in Catholics acuse you of such. If anyone is playing the role of replacers, it's the Protestants. Their imitation of Jacob, the supplanter, in pretending that the Catholics who preceded them by 1500 years are not their elder brothers and sisters in the faith, and with how they have changed the gospel, they have usurped the faith rather than being grafted in. It's not replacement, it's grafting in. We, as Catholics, absolutely are an organic outgrowth of the original Jewish faith through Christ and His Death on the tree. So now, these branches all worship the Blessed Trinity.

Therefore, it is vitally important that your Bible be the Douay-Rheims so that you know that you have the Truth. Example: St. Luke 1:28: "And the Angel being come in, said unto Her, hail full of grace, the Lord is with Thee: Blessed art Thou among women." St. Gabriel, God's Messenger not only to Our Lady but to the prophet Daniel, on behalf of God, was the first to proclaim Her Blessed among women. Compare this to one protestant version of "Hail, o highly favored daughter, the Lord is with you." Theologically, there is so much difference that the protestants have no problem bashing Mary, calling Her a terrible sinner, saying She had other children, when they confess only to the virgin conception, everthing BUT blessed, which was God's designation for Her. Whereas we Catholics believe in the Blessed Virgin Mary as Ever Virgin. The True Church, Catholic, teaches us that Mary was a physically intact virgin both before and after conception as well as both before and after giving birth. This is a true and the truth of the virgin birth. How different. 1 John 4:3 is very clear: "And every spirit that dissolves Jesus, is not of God: And this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he comes and he is now already in the world." In dissolving the virgin birth and reducing it to a virgin conception, is tantamount to dissolving Jesus. From this example it's not difficult to see that all should be very careful to know and to keep the pre-Vatican II teachings of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church lest they also fall for the Antichrist. Remember, the devil will try to fool even the Elect.

Our Reason and Purpose for This New Caucus Designation

We must always remember that the devil knows Scripture frontwards and backwards and from side to side. In recognition of that, we know that he recognizes what Jesus said in St. Matthew 12:25: ..."Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Satan has used Jesus' Words against Him and against His Church on many occasions. Most recently, with Vatican II he has managed to set up a number of divisions in Christ's True Church. Most obviously among them are Novus Ordo Catholics, Sede Vacantis, St. Pius X, Fraternal Order of St. Peter, The Resistance, CRMI, and a myriad of Episcopal churches (a parish or parishes claiming to be the True Church run either by a priest or a Bishop as a separate entity, aka Independants). He has even caused divisions within these divisions. Like the Orthodox, it would seem true for most Bishops that they each consider themselves a pope with papal authority to bind and loose. This certainly can in no one way, shape, manner or form be called 'Unity' as Jesus had with and through His Apostles.

In recognition of the above, we desire and propose to go back to the time of Vatican II, and at least informally to remove these walls of division. Before Vatican II there was no battle in the Western Church between Novus Ordo and Traditional, between Sede Vacantis and those loyal to the Pope, between SSPX and FSSP, between CRMI and Independants, and so forth. Pre-Vatican II those divisions didn't exist. Other divisions exist in the Novus Ordo Church, I.e., Liberals versus Conservatives, Novus Ordo Mass versus Traditional Mass, those who give Francis I legitamcy and those that consider him an anti-Pope, and those who would return to Pope John Paul II and not contend with Francis I and his dismantling of the biblical tenants of the Catholic Faith such as allowing divorced and remarried people to come back to the Sacraments without leaving as Jesus Himself said in St. Matthew 19, their adulturous relationship.

Considering that the Church on Earth has been since Abraham, considered as the extention of God's reign to the Earth through Abraham, Moses, Issac, Jacob, etc. the high priests of the Jewish temple and through St. Peter and his true successors, all of whom have represented the sceptre of God's Rule on Earth, we allow that He is still reigning, in spite of Benedict XVI and Francis I through the spirit and memory of Pope St. John Paul II and the other true popes that were his predecesors. We desire to put division and strife aside including over the Pope, and look forward to who ever God is going to send in fulfillment of Apocalypse 11 as His representatives, the Witnesses, in what St. Paul refers to in his letter to the Hebrews 9:10: ..."And divers washings, and justices of the flesh laid on them until the time of correction." We see no reason not to use the Tridentine Mass even in English, so that we once again have one Mass, the one that was handed down to us by our forefathers in the early Church to help us to hang on to all of the truths that it contains and teaches every time that it is said, that were lost in the Novus Ordo Mass. With Mass for most people being only a once a week ritual, it should be the one that most reflects our core beliefs with the Eucharist being the center and focus of our worship and our faith. This would be in accordance with "Redemptionis Sacramentum", encyclical by Pope St. John Paul II, which was promulgated April 23, 2001. It included doing away with Communion under both species at every Mass and Communion in the hand. Let us once again be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic and go back to the primitive rule.

We quote from the Religion Moderator as concerns caucuses in general: "Caucus labels exist only for the purpose of avoiding unwanted disruptions on Religion Forum threads. The terms used in a Caucus label are not necessarily precise with reference to Canon Law, Theology or even dictionaries but are intended to communicate briefly who should or should not post on a thread.

A Reply Post may be removed from a Caucus thread if the Moderator recognizes the poster as a non-member.

If you believe a poster is not a member of the Caucus, or if you believe the article or reply posts are mentioning beliefs of the non-members of the Caucus let me know by Freepmail and I will followup as soon as possible.

Do not disturb the Caucus.

Catholic Caucus Designations

The "Catholic Caucus" designation excludes Sede Vacantis, Orthodox, SSPX, and inactive Catholics." (We would propose to change this to non pre-Vatican II and non Conservative or inactive Catholics.)

"Any of the excluded groups may be included on a particular thread by extending the label, e.g. "Catholic/Orthodox Caucus" or "Cath/SV/SSPX Caucus".

Additionally, the label " All Catholic" may be used to include any Freeper who self identifies as a Catholic regardless of his attitude about the Pope, Papal, Infallibility, Vatican II, or Schisms or sects.

The SSPX will be included by default on a Catholic Caucus when (and if) Bishop Fellay accepts the olive branch offered."

TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; cmri; fssp; latinmass; loveofneighbor; pope; prevaticanii; romancatholic; sspv; sspx; tlm; tradition; traditionalcatholic; traditionalist; traditionalmass; tridentine; tridentinemass; unity; vatican; vatican2; vaticanii
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1 posted on 06/11/2017 12:57:50 PM PDT by Trad Bishop
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To: Trad Bishop

Your Excellency, unfortunately you seemed to have missed the part that disqualifies a thread from caucus designation if it contains criticism of other religious confessions.

2 posted on 06/11/2017 1:29:37 PM PDT by NRx (A man of integrity passes his father's civilization to his son, without selling it off to strangers.)
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To: Trad Bishop

It’s my opinion that some lukewarm Catholics are strengthened by reading the Catholic apologetics on open threads. It is good food for thought for them.

However, the animosity from other religions is painful and devisive.

Not sure there is a good answer.

3 posted on 06/11/2017 2:03:29 PM PDT by Melian (When you are ready to learn, a teacher will appear.)
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To: Trad Bishop

The mission of the Church is to lead all to eternal life with God.

How can this be accomplished if only 22-30% if registered Catholic parishioners attend Mass on a regular basis?

I agree that division in the Church is a problem, among many problems and society (the world) seems to encourage this.


The fullness of happiness is found in the encounter with Christ, who is the most complete answer to the question that is every human life. Following Christ is the foundation of Christian morality. John Paul wrote, “The decisive answer to every one of man’s questions, his religious and moral questions in particular, is given by Jesus Christ, or rather is Jesus Christ himself” (VS 2). The guide for the Christian life is not a set of rules:

Jesus’ way of acting and his words, his deeds, and his precepts constitute the moral rule of Christian life. Indeed, his actions, and in particular his passion and death on the cross, are the living revelation of his love for the Father and for others. This is exactly the love that Jesus wishes to be imitated by all who follow him. (VS 20)

To love as Jesus loved is to share in the life of Jesus, the life of grace that enables weak human beings to act beyond their limitations. It is not possible for anyone to imitate Christ through his own power.

How do we get there and help others?

4 posted on 06/11/2017 2:12:20 PM PDT by ADSUM
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To: NRx


5 posted on 06/11/2017 2:13:06 PM PDT by xone
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To: Trad Bishop

I don’t get who’s in this Caucus.

Are diocesan and FSSP parishioners in?

6 posted on 06/11/2017 2:27:53 PM PDT by Claud
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: NRx

Amen. I counted at least FOUR “other religions” in the article.

8 posted on 06/11/2017 2:44:38 PM PDT by left that other site (You shall know the Truth, and The Truth Shall Set You Free.)
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To: Trad Bishop
Before Vatican II there was no battle in the Western Church ... between Sede Vacantis and those loyal to the Pope

Sure there was. The Church referred to those sedevacantist types as "schismatics".

between SSPX and FSSP

Of course those groups didn't exist prior to Vatican II. But consider the "Old Catholics": they split from Rome after Vatican I.

between CRMI and Independants

(I think you mean CMRI.) Sure there was. The Church referred to those groups as "schismatics" and sometimes "heretics".

Pre-Vatican II those divisions didn't exist.

Of course they did. That's why canon law -- pre Vatican II -- specified the crime of schism and its due punishment.

9 posted on 06/11/2017 2:51:23 PM PDT by Campion (Halten Sie sich unbedingt an die Lehre!)
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To: Trad Bishop
With today being Trinity Sunaday, I noticed the postcommunion prayer:

O Lord, our God, may the receiving of this sacrament and the acknowledging of the holy and eternal Trinity and its undivided Unity profit us unto health of mind and body. Through our Lord Jesus Christ...

To be quite a contradiction to Bergoglio's statement that:

“Inside the Holy Trinity they’re all arguing behind closed doors,” Cuda says Francis told them, “but on the outside they give the picture of unity.”

And we see it weekly in Bergoglio's inane comments that the Holy Ghost, the "god of surprises" has changes in store for us as compared to what Jesus Christ has taught us. Wasn't it Jesus Christ who sent the Holy Ghost to the apostles at Pentecost?

10 posted on 06/11/2017 2:54:32 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome)
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To: miss marmelstein

This is not a Catholic Caucus, nor is this an open forum. It is a pre-Vatican II Caucus. Please read, once again “Pre-Vatican Caucus” and realize that it was instituted for just the purpose that you are asking. We can’t change the past but we can look forward now with life without Catholic haters. Stay off the Catholic Caucus and the open caucus and stay on this one.

11 posted on 06/11/2017 3:14:13 PM PDT by Trad Bishop
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To: Claud

See the section of this posting that describes the regular rules from the Moderator and our proposed changes.

12 posted on 06/11/2017 3:16:13 PM PDT by Trad Bishop
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To: Trad Bishop

I assume this has the approval of the owner or his mods? And it doesn’t address my concern about the lurkers here who are always looking to break down the Caucus designation even for something as minor as mentioning Luther in passing.

There is now a Protestant caucus which I’ve never looked at and usually contains only about 4-6 replies, generally. I wouldn’t presume to go on and look for “mistakes” but the anti-Catholics do.

Thanks for doing this!

13 posted on 06/11/2017 3:23:56 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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Jesus Himself from what the Gospels tell us and from how many were at the foot of His Cross, is one clue. Another clue is that there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 billion people who call themselves Catholics in the world (many of whom are only nominal Catholics), with a total population of 7.2 billion people, which isn't too far from 22-30%. Both of these statistics would indicate that who does and who doesn't go to church is not the limiting factor. Do you live your life and conduct yourself as a shining light as did Pope St. John Paul II? One of the prime requirements of canonization is to have evidenced, not just virtue, but heroic virtue. Heroic virtue gets plenty of notice, even by the bad guy. Live as Pope St. John Paul II did and love as he did, and you will have done your part. He imitated Christ. He lived by the primitive rule that Jesus, by His Life, gave to mankind. It's not possible to outdo Jesus and still not force anyone's free will. So keep your light where people can see it and your log where people can feel it.
14 posted on 06/11/2017 3:38:40 PM PDT by Trad Bishop
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To: ebb tide

Please go back and read and reread what we said we were going to do and not do in this Caucus.

15 posted on 06/11/2017 4:51:00 PM PDT by Trad Bishop
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To: Campion

Our intent is to unify in love those who want to imitate Christ. As the psalm says “Lord, if You mark iniquity, who can stand?” If Campion marks iniquity against a fellow sinner, whom Jesus said to forgive, not seven times but seventy times seven times, how can love ever prevail? Say the “Our Father” and note the criteria that is set forth for our forgiveness. No where in that prayer does it say forgive only after you have gotten your pound of flesh/your revenge. In the venue of this new Caucus we hope to create space for love and where they will not accept it, we will create room for prayer. On the internet there’s absolutely no requirement for face to face confrontations. Get over it and move on. As the Moderator has specified.

16 posted on 06/11/2017 5:05:18 PM PDT by Trad Bishop
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To: Trad Bishop

Who exactly are “we”?

17 posted on 06/11/2017 5:10:38 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome)
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To: Trad Bishop

ince May 29, 2017 Trad: I have some good news for you. I have previously posted how most Catholic churches I attend in both IL and GA are pro-gay, abortion friendly, and preach Obamanomics from the pulpit.

But today the Black Priest at St Joseph in Marietta GA gave a sermon that was a coherent view of Catholic and Christian theology on HEALTH, using the Trinity as the backdrop. It was well thought out. Without mentioning the political debate over healthcare, he totally refuted the leftist secular “scientific” approach to health.

18 posted on 06/11/2017 5:33:45 PM PDT by spintreebob
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To: Trad Bishop; Religion Moderator

Hey, Trad, since you are a newbie, how much did you donate to the Free Republic Freepathon to get your very own special “Caucus” which disobeys ALL the caucus rules???

Maybe you should read the Religion Moderator’s profile page for the actual rules before you presume to set up something claiming his/her approval?

19 posted on 06/11/2017 5:34:02 PM PDT by boatbums (Authority has a way of descending to certitude, and certitude begets hubris.)
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To: Trad Bishop

Hey, noob, you come on FR, post a thread that mentions other denominations or belief systems, have the nerve to label it as a form of Catholic caucus and the LECTURE the rest of us on proper RF decorum??????

Physician, heal thyself.

And learn the RF guidelines while you’re at it.

Oh, and don’t be a hypocrite and demand that others toe the line that you exempt yourself from.

20 posted on 06/11/2017 6:39:02 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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