Posted on 05/13/2017 1:47:57 PM PDT by SkyPilot
(Excerpt) Read more at olivetreeviews.org ...
I would like some informed opinions from Christians regarding her interview with Pastor Billy Crone from Sunrise Baptist Church.
Their segment runs the first 18 minutes of today's radio program, and discusses the theory regarding what is sometimes referred to as the "Heavenly Sign" that will appear on September 23, 2017.
The topic is quite involved, and there are many theories out there regarding its significance (or not).
This website has the most complete information that I have seen:
http://www.heavenlysign2017.com/
I am not certain whether or not this sign is a fulfillment of Revelation 12 or not. It may or may not be significant. I do think the evidence is quite interesting, and it is something I have watched videos and read about.
What troubled me about Pastor Crone's segment on Jan's show today was his mocking tone and stridency. He is clearly dead set against the September sign as having any Biblical significance, and made that quite clear. He came off (in my opinion) as hostile and aggressive.
Some of thing he said:
1. He believed that the events described in Revelation Chapter 12 "have already occurred" and described the birth of Christ 2,000 years ago.
My question: since when did pre-tribulation believing Christians (which Jan and he say they are) believe that events described in Revelation are past events? Isn't that Preterism?
2. He said that this sign is occurs quite frequently (every few years). All of the analysis I have read with regard to computer projections of the program Stellarium state the opposite. Was Crone including the fact that Jupiter is in retrograde inside of the constellation Virgo? Was Crone accurate in his statements?
3. Both Crone and Jan firmly stated that "nothing will happen" on September 23rd regarding the Rapture, and then in the next few minutes stated their belief in the imminency of the Rapture (which I also believe in). But they contradicted themselves in the process, and came across to me as speaking out of both sides of their mouths.
Again, I don't know if the September sign is a possible season of the Rapture. But I am paying attention to it.
My personal belief is that Christ stating that "no man knows the day nor the hour" could be pointing to the Jewish idiom for the Feast of Trumpets (no one knows when the feast begins, either the day or hour, because the new moon must be sighted in Jerusalem).
Christ also told us to watch for the season of His return. And Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5: 1-11
5 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.
4. Another thing that troubled me Jan hosted numerous programs on the Blood Moon signs, but basically called any discussion of the September 23rd sign as witchcraft.
Of course, those who don't believe in Christanity, the Rapture, or fall into the pre-tribulation view of eschatology won't really care one way or the other. But for those who do fall into the above categories, was today's discussion by Jan and Crone fair and accurate?
Sincere thoughts and discussion would be welcome.
Thanks.
Could you ping the prophecy list? I would be interested in their opinions. I am also especially interested in hearing from Freeper submareener, who I believe is well informed on this topic.
Thanks.
Thanks for the ping SP!
Lera: Please add me to your ping lists for Prophecy updates in the future.
God Bless!
My take is a wait and see, (because we should ALWAYS be expecting the Blessed Hope.)
It is interesting, however. If you throw in the US solar eclipse 33 days before, plus 40 days before Yom Kippur, it gets even more interesting.
Absolutely. My take as well. And if there is no Rapture of the Church tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year - it is still my blessed hope:
Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 2:13
I am trying to figure out if I am off base or alone here regarding my take of the interview with Pastor Billy Crone and also Jan Markell's comments.
To me, they seemed completely out of character with the rest of their broadcasts and messages.
To those who follow Olive Tree Views regularly, am I off base?
we’re looking at astrology for this??
bkmk
I examine this subject in detail at “The Rescue of the Bride” http://october-5-2017.com The Great Sign of the Woman appears on September 23, 2017. However, the important date is October 5, 2017. The Sixth Seal will be opened and The Red Dragon will appear on October 5, 2017. The Rescue of the Bride will take place on October 5, 2017.
Jan M. will never get the timeline right as long as she holds to the Biblically unsupported doctrine of “PreTrib Rapture.”
For a Biblically supported take on the timing of things to come, please read “The Rescue of the Bride” at http://october-5-2017.com
I like them both. They are usually straight shooters and positive. I always feel very uncomfortable when spiritual leaders get very testy and negative UNLESS they have multiple, firm scriptural reasons.
The “day and hour” of Matt. 24:36 is the “fig tree” therefore Israel. And the 24:42 and 25:13 references are clearly the Church.
But, Rosh Hashannah is not narrowed to a single day, yet alone an hour. Because that feast time is painted with a broad brush stroke, I think it should at least be considered.
I will wager a $100 donation to FreeRepublic that the Rapture does NOT occur on September 23, 2017.
Not astrology necessarily, more likely the mazerot, at least if there is actually a valid sign being given with this alignment. I am not expressing an opinion but a quick study of the mazerot will show that, like everything from satan, astrology is a perverted twist from the original.
“We believe as it concerns the Rapture, ‘it could happen today’ which is imminency.”
The doctrine of imminency, as espoused by pre-trib rapturists, is NOT explicitly taught in scripture, is an inference that presupposes this doctrine, but is in error.
And this error will have an egregious impact on the last generation church, which may greatly contribute to the Biblically prophesied “falling away” and “apostasy.”
Matthew 24:8-14
All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Is the mindset that is prepared for great trial the same as the mindset that is prepared for Christ taking us to Heaven? Not if one believes in imminency.
No need to look up:
Acts 1:11
who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
You should look up:
Luke 21:28
Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.
Why is there no need to look up at one point, but the disciples were directed to look up at another future time? The return of Christ, described in the Olivet discourse as being AFTER the Great Tribulation, is only imminent when the proceeding 6 signs have been accomplished. Jesus says so.
Hebrews 10:25
not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
The doctrine of imminency is impossible to reconcile with this verse. You can’t have it both ways. If Christ’s return could be at any moment, then there could be no signs to watch for. What Day is the verse referring to? The Day of Christ. The Day when Christ returns. To those who remain on earth, it is the Day of Wrath.
How do we “see the Day approaching”?
Not by looking up (at least not at first), but by observing the signs. Remember that the Olivet discourse came as an answer to a few questions by the disciples, including what sign would tell them that He was about to return. He gave them 6 signs, with His return being the 7th sign of the “End”, i.e. Day of the Lord. The 6 signs of the Olivet discourse correspond to the 6 seals of Revelation 6. The 7th seal in chapter 8 marks the onset of the Day of the Lord where His wrath begins to be poured out on the earth. Chapter 7 depicts the rapture from the view of Heaven.
Matthew 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Those who embrace the pre-trib rapture doctrine must do mental backflips to make the return of Christ in the Olivet discourse something different and apart from His return for the Church.
A pre-wrath view harmonizes with the prophetic passages on Christ’s second coming. It distinguishes between the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord. Signs in the sun and moon appear at the end the Great Tribulation, but immediately prior to the Day of the Lord. Likewise, Christ’s return comes immediately after the Great Tribulation, but at the arrival of the Day of the Lord.
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6:12-17
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
The Bible teaches two mindsets with regard to the timing of Christ’s return. One is watchful readiness. The other is patiently waiting. We must watch and be ready, not because His return can happen at any moment, but because it will take those who are unprepared by surprise. But we must also wait patiently because we must go through great trials first.
Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
Acts 14:21-22
And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
James 5:7-8
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
“The words in italics were added by the translators, verse 11 reads: ‘And from the time the daily is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, one thousand two hundred and ninety days.’ So 1260+30 days after ‘the daily’ is taken away, the anti-Christ will set up the abomination of desolation, and we know that that is 1260 from the start of Daniel’s 70th week and 1260 days from the end. So what is ‘the daily’ that will be ‘taken away’? Well, it is certainly not the daily sacrifices that the Jews will present in the Third Temple...”
I refuted your misinterpretation of this months ago. If the Tribulation comes in the next several months, we will all go through it or perish in it. Jesus is coming after it but before the Day of the Lord, which follows the Great Tribulation. Those who are counting on escaping by a secret rapture beforehand are much more likely to be among those who “fall away,” “are offended” for Jesus’ sake, or apostatize, as the scriptures warn repeatedly will happen to professing Christians during that time period.
Daniel 8:10-14
And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.
Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”
And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”
Daniel 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
Daniel 11:31
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Mark 13:14
So when you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
The term “daily” in relation to the temple in Daniel 8, 11, and 12 cited above MUST mean daily sacrifices. You can’t simply decide what you want it to mean in order to make it fit your paradigm. This is something daily done in connection with the temple - the sanctuary of the temple specifically. And the passage in chapter 9 above proves that the abomination of desolation brings about an end to sacrifices. Yes, “sacrifice” is in the original Hebrew. See zebah at http://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/9.htm which is ALWAYS translated as sacrifice for ALL 53 times it is used in the Bible.
Further, Jesus said in the above passage from Mark that the abomination will “stand.” It is a thing. And the passage from Daniel 11 above tells us where this thing will be placed: in the sanctuary. The sanctuary will be defiled, ending the daily sacrifice, and replacing it with this thing that will stand there. And how long will the daily sacrifice be taken away? Until the sanctuary is cleansed. See, the abomination in the temple is what takes away the daily sacrifice.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
The anti-Christ will demand worship from the whole world and exalt himself above all other deities. He will put an end to the daily sacrifice and offerings in the temple.
And finally, we can examine the Hebrew word “daily” to see how it is used elsewhere in scripture. Daily (hattamid) is used 24 times: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/hattamid_8548.htm . How many times does the word refer to daily sacrifices? Take a guess. ALL OF THEM! Bread, grain, oil, drink, meat, showbread are all connected throughout Numbers and Nehemiah where the word is used in addition to Daniel.
The word “daily” in the Daniel passages, like all other places in the Bible, is ALWAYS used of the daily or continual sacrifice in the holy place. It is NEVER used to refer to something else.
It is foolish and dangerous to twist these prophetic scriptures to fit your own ideas. Doing so brings destruction:
2 Peter 3:13-16
Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Your date setting is as flawed as your misinterpretation of the reference to “daily” in Daniel. And I strongly encourage you to avail yourself of this Biblical correction and humble yourself under God’s mighty hand NOW, rather than in October when it will be much more humiliating for you, those who have misled you, and those you have misled.
That's my feeling as well Mrs. Z. Thanks for you input.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/doctrine-of-imminency-is-it-biblical
But I appreciate your opinions and thanks for sharing them here.
But, I do watch the times and seasons, as Christ and the Bible implored us to do.
It isn't about who is right or wrong, but about being spiritually ready for the Master when He comes.
Did you listen to those 18 minutes of broadcast? What did you think of that Pastor Billy Crone's tone and debate points? Am I wrong that he was acting in a very prideful and condescending manner?
Was he even correct in the facts and on the points he was making?
Understood and largely agreed.
Only promise that when September 23, 2017 turns out to be just another day, that you won’t fall for this kind of mumbo-jumbo anymore.
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