Posted on 04/29/2017 8:02:13 AM PDT by NYer
As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.
The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.
The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.
Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:
| On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ |
And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed. |
More commonly the prayer is translated:
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:
| Latin Text Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta |
English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen. |
The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.
Likewise in 1 Samuel 28 when Saul goes to the witch of Endor and calls up Samuel.
He does it because God did not answer him and Saul was condemned for it. Nor did Samuel tell Saul what to do either as Saul requested.
In both those cases, the “prayers” were NOT answered.
Why would Catholic think that anyone but God can or will answer prayer when the only examples we have of people praying to departed saints shows the futility of it?
Catholics do to.
So what?
Two different words in the Greek.
Theos and Kyrios are translated different and have different meanings and are NEVER used interchangeably in Scripture.
The only place that conflates them and tries to eliminate the difference, is the Catholic church.
LORD vs GOD
http://biblehub.com/greek/2962.htm
LORD kurios: lord, master
Original Word: κύριος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kurios
Phonetic Spelling: (koo'-ree-os)
Short Definition: lord, Lord, master, sir
Definition: lord, master, sir; the Lord.
HELPS Word-studies
2962 kýrios – properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord (Lord).
http://biblehub.com/greek/2316.htm
Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.
HELPS Word-studies
2316 theós (of unknown origin) – properly, God, the Creator and owner of all things (Jn 1:3; Gen 1 - 3). [Long before the NT was writte
Minor sin?!?!
I’m surprised that the combination of using the Bible AND making it the KJV doesn’t ensure eternal damnation that no amount of purgatory can eliminate.
Appreciate that. As I and many others here can attest, God is able to penetrate even the hardest of hearts and minds with the truth. PTL!
I am sure she is doing exactly that.
Here is a question, however. Some people, not me, think Mary was sinless. Since sin causes physical death, if that is true, why did she die? A conundrum, yes?
Hey, when I get to Heaven, I will say hello to Mary for you. On second thought, maybe I won't, since my opinion is, that the dead, saved or lost, have consciousness, but do not know what is happening on earth. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
I was a necromancer at one time. I suspect you were too, BB, but no more. 😂
That attitude was pretty common in the middle ages and it was this thinking that gave rise to the development of prayers to "Saints" and Mary in particular. From Luther's Theology of Mary, we learn:
Luther'’s frequent mentioning of Saint Bernard speaks of his fondness and familiarity with his writings. Later recollecting Bernard'’s influence on his own Mariolatry, Luther looked back on the years before his break with Rome and said,
He also recollected, “Christ in His mercy was hidden from my eyes. I wanted to become justified before God through the merits of the saints. This gave rise to the petition for the intercession of the saints. On a portrait St. Bernard, too, is portrayed adoring the Virgin Mary as she directs her Son, Christ, to the breasts that suckled Oh, how many kisses we bestowed on Mary”![14] Luther concluded though, that even in St Bernard’'s incessant praise of Mary as she directs the sinner toward Christ, Bernard left out Christ completely: “Bernard filled a whole sermon with praise of the Virgin Mary and in so doing forgot to mention what happened [the incarnation of Christ]; so highly did he… esteem Mary.” [15] Thus, young Luther partook in Mariolatry, but the mature Luther looking back saw only the excesses of medieval devotion and teaching on Mary. He saw that she had been adorned with attributes that only belonged to Christ.
I’ll take that as conceding my point, then. My interpretation is as valid as yours.
Love,
O2
You win!
You may now exit the field of battle knowing you were victorious.
Nice try, no cigar...
“And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.”
[Apocalypse (Revelation) 8:4]
As to your other reply, are you saying that you believe God allows things to happen in heaven of which He does not approve?
Once again, you may not agree with my interpretation, and I don’t expect you to agree with it, but it is indeed bible- based. If you believe personal interpretation of scripture is valid, then you have no basis to deny me mine.
Love, O2
Thanks, it’s good to know that both you and ealgeone agree that praying to saints, including Blessed Mary, is entirely acceptable and based on scripture.
Love,
O2
Only that's not what they said. Nice try, though!
Tell me, why do you or does anyone pray to deceased "saints" and especially Mary? I come from a Roman Catholic background and I remember well being given prayers (the Our Father, the Hail Mary, especially) as penance to do after confession. I always wondered how saying prayers could be seen as adequate "punishment" for sins we committed and then confessed. Yet, from a young age I didn't pray very much at all TO dead saints because I always thought praying directly to God was better (it was just an instinctive act - no one told me to do or not do so). So, what do you see as the benefit of praying to saints and Mary to petition God for you when you know you can go to Him directly?
I agree that we are encouraged to pray for each other in Scripture but I see that as more about having a stake in the ministries and lives of fellow believers. On the other hand, praying to those who are already dead presumes they first of all can hear our prayers - even THOUGHT prayers - and, secondly, that there is some intrinsic value in their prayers over those of other Christians - like everyday variety Christians are less effective or something. Granted, James tells us the effectual, fervent prayers of righteous people avails much, but I have seen fervent prayers to Mary come back unanswered. At least with people we talk to here, we can interact and share in the blessings of answered, or unanswered, prayers. There's NO way we can know our prayers to the dead are even heard much less that they avail at anything. Even when it does seem that prayers to saints get results, more often than not, it's the saint that gets the praise and glory and not God. That is a huge flashing sign to me.
I know this thread was posted to try to prove early Christians prayed to Mary after her death and for some it is adequate proof but for others it didn't prove anything other than extra-biblical rites and doctrines were brought into practice in the community centuries after the last Apostle died. We don't have solid proof that they either taught believers to do this or encouraged it. Is it possible that this is one of those "disputable matters" and not something that should divide fellow Christians or cause bitterness, anger and dissension? I guess what I'm trying to say is that non-Catholic Christians have genuine reasons why we don't practice prayers to anyone other than God. Can Catholics and Orthodox believers accept that or must we ALL march to the same drummer on this point?
Where's that cigar BEEN?
I denied you nothing!
Go for it!
(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche)
| 1 | Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces. |
| 2. | I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary. |
| 3. | The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies |
| 4. | It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means. |
| 5. | The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. |
| 6. | Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying Himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise Him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life. |
| 7. | Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. |
| 8. | Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise. |
| 9. | I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. |
| 10. | The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven. |
| 11. | You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary. |
| 12. | All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities. |
| 13. | I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death |
| 14. | All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ. |
| 15. | Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination. |
"The Most Holy Virgin in these last times in which we live has given a new efficacy to the recitation of the Rosary to such an extent that there is no problem,
no matter how difficult it is, wheter temporal or above all spiritual, in the personal life of each one of us, of our families...that cannot be solved by the Rosary.
There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we cannot resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary."
Sister Lucia dos Santos
Ya want flimsy proof instead?
If the 'church' that Christ started is so good and true; then WHY does 'Mary' have to show up on Earth from time to time to deliver a 'message'?
Do novenas EVER fail?
|
Novena To Our Lady of Mount Carmel
O Beautiful Flower of Carmel, Most Fruitful Vine, Splendor of Heaven, holy and singular, who brought forth the Son of God, still ever remaining a pure virgin, assist us in our necessity! O Star of the Sea, help and protect us! Show us that you are our Mother! (pause and mention petitions) Most Holy Mary, Our Mother, in your great love for us you gave us the Holy Scapular of Mount Carmel, having heard the prayers of your chosen son Saint Simon Stock. Help us now to wear it faithfully and with devotion. May it be a sign to us of our desire to grow in holiness. (pause and mention petitions) O Queen of Heaven, you gave us the Scapular as an outward sign by which we might be known as your faithful children. May we always wear it with honor by avoiding sin and imitating your virtues. Help us to be faithful to this desire of ours.(pause and mention petitions) When you gave us, Gracious Lady, the Scapular as our Habit, you called us to be not only servants, but also your own children. We ask you to gain for us from your Son the grace to live as you children in joy, peace and love. (pause and mention petitions) O Mother of Fair Love, through your goodness, as your children, we are called to live in the spirit of Carmel. Help us to live in charity with one another, prayerful as Elijah of old, and mindful of our call to minister to God's people. With loving provident care, O Mother Most Amiable, you covered us with your Scapular as a shield of defense against the evil one. Through your assistance, may we bravely struggle against the powers of evil, always open to your Son Jesus Christ.(pause and mention petitions) O Mary, Help of Christians, you assured us that wearing your Scapular worthily would keep us safe from harm. Protect us in both body and soul with your continual aid. May all that we do be pleasing to your Son and to you. (pause and mention petitions) You give us hope, O Mother of Mercy, that through your Scapular promise we might quickly pass through the fires of purgatory to the Kingdom of your Son. Be our comfort and our hope. Grant that our hope may not be in vain but that, ever faithful to your Son and to you, we may speedily enjoy after death the blessed company of Jesus and the saints. (pause and mention petitions)
O Most Holy Mother of Mount Carmel, when asked by a saint to grant privileges to the family of Carmel, you gave assurance of your Motherly love and help to those faithful to you and to your Son.Behold us, your children. We glory in wearing your holy habit, which makes us members of your family of Carmel, through which we shall have your powerful protection in life, at death and even after death. |
Eye of toad, Ear of bat,
Leg of frog, Tail of cat,
Drop them in, stir it up,
Pour it in a silver cup
In the parable the rich man did communicate and plead with Abraham, yet Abraham was not at that time in Heaven. To compare the mere communication and entreaty showcased within the parable as being truly prayer, to extent that that communication be indistinguishably interchangeable with "prayer", and could be passed on to God through secondary actors YET STILL BE ACCEPTABLE, by God, would be to rely too much upon less-than well-founded speculations as foundation, thus be form of lower order mistake (no pun intended).
That the prayer not be directed to anyone considered to be residing in Heaven renders the continual referencing towards your own reply at #61 superfluous, when considered in wider context of not only what you had replied to from #9 that had also contained this premise;
More to the point would be to say; "no teaching in scripture recommends praying to anyone other than Our Father in Heaven", as Christ himself did explicitly instruct.
It matters that in the context of this thread's original posting, reply #9 was posted to the OP's opening comment, #1. That greatly nullifies the [below italicized] escape clause you had created;
The statement made by aMorePerfectUnion, although not explicitly qualified to be restricted to "anyone in heaven" was still within context of --prayers to departed saints-- including prayer directed to "Mary" herself. Which is the subject matter of this thread, thus would not necessarily require the stipulated qualification.
Would you care to now concede the point, provided; if the qualification were to be explicit? Yes, or no?
The wider context I'm pointing towards here, was also made clear enough by daniel1212 having said in reply #88
Perhaps you'd concede that point, when worded as daniel1212 had put it? Yes, or no? Choose one.
In regard to your own comment @ reply #61 (and to whatever it was you were trying to establish) where does that leave us now?
Answer: That there was a parable used as teaching tool by Jesus Christ himself, that included there having been communication between individuals in differing realms ---within Sheol.
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