Posted on 04/29/2017 8:02:13 AM PDT by NYer
As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.
The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.
The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.
Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:
| On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ |
And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed. |
More commonly the prayer is translated:
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:
| Latin Text Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta |
English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen. |
The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.
But; who really cares, since we can make up any prayers we want; as evidenced by the differing 'translations' shown in this article.
Next thing ya know; Rome's Mary will be getting all KINDS of adjectives and phrases being used to describe her; NONE of which are biblical!
Really?
PRAYER???
28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
Mary Visits Elizabeth
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
God = Lord?
Who knew!!
When did the EO split away from Rome?
Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
Because your leadership FAILED to completely EXTERMINATE them back in the day when they had ABSOLUTE power over peoples lives.
Oh?
I thought the evidence shows that Rome's minions really have no SCRIPTURE to back up their attempts at authenticating Rome's various 'doctrines'.
only 'DISRESPECTFUL'???
It's called 'contending for the faith' ONCE given to the saints.
You got that right!
Christianity condemns idolatry....the RCC has sanctified it.
Which is playing word games, as there is more than one word which can be used for worship , with the manner of denoting what it us. ..
One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them
Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture , yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.
Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?
Caths should only do (and I should do more of) what Mary and every believer in Scripture did in praying to Heaven, which was to pray directly to the Lord, not saintly secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.
Instead, Caths basically say,
As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)
You are still ignoring the manifest reality fact that such requests are never made to created beings in Heaven, but are only btwn those on earth, and which simply does not warrant assuming that prayers were made to created beings in Heaven.
Again, the Holy Spirit provides approx. 200 prayers in Scripture, but zero to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord, who is the One addressed in instruction and examples of prayer on That you cannot see that Heaven and earth are two different realms, and that only God is prayed to, and shown being able to hear and respond to all prayer, is to insist on teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Why would they ask God this if they weren't already aware of what was going on on earth and concerned about it? How did they become aware of it? And no, I'm not being careless or desperate, I'm trying to get people to read the text and think through the issues more closely.
Think through the issues more closely is just what is lacking on your part, for presuming these martyred souls knew to some degree what was happening on earth - which would likely be due to the arrival of more martyred souls - just how does this example or teach that they were prayed to???
Nobody has pointed out any inconsistencies between Catholicism and Scripture so far in the posts I've read
Which is like a thief who cannot find a police station. Among many other inconsistencies between Catholicism and the record of the NT church in Scripture, you have one church regularly engaging in prayer to created beings in Heaven and instructing them to do so, while the inspired record of the NT church - and indeed all of Scripture - there is not one single example of praying to anyone else in Heaven but God, except by pagans, and instruction or in examples on who to address in prayer to Heaven is only to God.
Quite the opposite, it was conceded earlier that there is no Scriptural prohibition against asking the faithful departed to pray for us.
There is also no prohibition against such a thing as consensual cannibalism (you have me for dinner when i die, or i have you, whoever dies first) as a normal practice, but based upon what we see set forth as man's food we can see that, based upon principal, such would be wrong as a practice, if not perhaps in dire circumstances. Regardless, do you really hold that the absence of any manifest Scriptural prohibition for something justifies it being held as a doctrine, even when it deals with a most basic common practice which lacks even one example among approx. 200 in Scripture? You insult the Holy Spirit, who would not be neglectful to record such if indeed it was a practice, for which there are multitudes of opportunities, and you presume upon God by directing souls to engage in a practice of supplication that only He is shown to be the direct recipient of, and able to hear all from Heaven.
And here you are conceding that we are dependent on the Church Fathers for our NT manuscripts and our knowledge of the 1st century.
Not entirely, but as said, we were also dependent upon the Jews for OT manuscripts and our knowledge of that era, as well as to archeologists, but which does not make such the standard for Truth over wholly inspired Scripture. And if you want to argue that being the magisterial steward of Divine revelation makes that office perpetually the supreme authority on it then you have no valid church.
I agree that the Church Fathers don't have the 100% accuracy of Scripture, but the point is, you don't even have Scripture without them, so Sola Scriptura isn't a consistent position.
What? Do you really believe that SS means only Scripture is to be used and is wholly formally sufficient, which thus excludes even reasoning? This is certainly not what the Reformers themselves exampled. "Substantiation for this understanding of the gospel came principally from the Scriptures, but whenever they could, the reformers also quoted the fathers of the catholic church. There was more to quote than their Roman opponents found comfortable" (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959).
But as is abundantly evidenced, the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes first being spoken, and that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.
The traditions Paul was referring to were written down by the post-NT writers
Which is mere an argument by assertion for something you cannot show, and the Old Roman Creed does not do it, but Caths have no problem making doctrines out of what is not seen.
I do agree that we must test traditions against Scripture and that Rome is not free to make up new revelations which do not have early and widespread historical attestation.
Okay, I'll cite two verses in the NT. What does Paul mean by "one escaping through the flames" on the day of judgement in 1 Corinthians 3:15?
Typical abuse of Scripture, for 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 does NOT teach purgatory, for it not only refers to the judgment seat of Christ, which does not take place until the Lord's return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) versus purgatory, which has souls suffering commencing upon death. This alone disqualifies I Corinthians 3 from referring Purgatory, while the suffering is that of the loss of rewards (with the Lord's displeasure), which one is saved despite of, not because of.
Moreover, the basis for loss or gain of rewards is based upon the manner of workmanship one built the church with, as in tares or wheat.
"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (1 Corinthians 3:8-10) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) "
Thus Paul speaks of believers being his rewards: "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Corinthians, “we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 2Cor. 1:14) And to the Philippians, that being “my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.” (Phil. 4:1)
Nowhere does Scripture tell of believers being in a place of suffering for a time commencing at death, but while the tormented postmortem state of the lost is clear, the only clear references to the postmortem place elect souls go to refers to them being with the Lord.
Faced with the fact that the only texts which clearly speak of the believers postmortem or post-earth existence show it to be with the Lord, the RC must engage in special pleading (the "good thief" somehow became good enough on the cross to enter Heaven directly while others can take centuries), and forcing texts which speak of chastisement in this life, or which speak of the lost, as referring to the postmortem existence of believers. But while the tormented postmortem state of the lost is clear, wherever the NT manifestly deals with the reality of the life after this one then it is them being with the Lord.
Not only did the penitent criminal go to "paradise" (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen, (Acts 7:59) but so would Paul and co. be with the Lord once absent from the body (Phil. 1:23,24) - even though Paul told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect.” (Phil. 3:12).Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8) and so would every resurrected Corinthian believer (1Cor. 15:51ff) or Thessalonian if the Lord returned in their lifetime, “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1Thess. 4:17) - even though in the former case at least believers were in need of greater purification. (2Cor. 7:1) And with the only suffering after this life being that of the judgment seat of Christ due to the loss of rewards (and fear and grief of the Lord's disapproval), which one is saved despite of. .
Faced with the fact that the only texts which clearly speak of the believers postmortem or post-earth existence show it to be with the Lord, the RC must engage in special pleading (the "good thief" somehow became good enough on the cross to enter Heaven directly while others can take centuries), and forcing texts which speak of chastisement in this life, or which speak of the lost, as referring to the postmortem existence of believers. I have dealt with all that i have seen, by the grace of God, but if you want to try...
And who are the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" in Hebrews 12:23?
Literally spirits [pneuma] just [dikaios] perfect [teleioō] but why not look at the context and see what "perfect" refers to, rather than in isolation? Hebrews is about the "better" (key word) covenant, high priest, promises, etc. by the redemption of Christ (and thus exhortations to continue in faith and to not forsake so great salvation), and as part of this we see that these OT saints were not made "perfect" in that they awaited the redemption of Christ by which both OT and NT believers enter Heaven. "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4) Thus "the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing." (Hebrews 9:8) But, "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." (Matthew 27:50-51) "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." (Ephesians 4:9-10) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:19-20) "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.' (Matthew 27:52-53)
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40) <
Thus this "perfect" is not speaking of perfection of character, but completeness in realizing the promise of Heaven by the redemption of Christ whereby all believers are made to sit with Christ in Heaven (Eph. 2:6) on His account, and shall "ever be with the Lord" at death or his return, then thus the next verse states,
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1)
Which leads to the verse at issue, which is prefaced not with the statement that believers are come to purgatory,
but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. (Hebrews 12:22-23)
And if most NT believers were not in Heaven then Hebrews would not put them there, and would teach that they must be made perfect after this life, yet which it nowhere does. Instead it teaches that God taketh away the first [covenant], that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:9-10,:14)
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Hebrews 10:19-20)
Thus believers have spiritual access now in Heaven, and both OT and NT believers go to Heaven right after this life. By His grace, thanks be to God.
You might want to research that a bit more.
Regarding Deut 6:8. You are way out of context on this one. You might want to reread that verse in context. To attempt to compare this with the belief that wearing a piece of cloth will save you is horrible exegesis. To be honest, I'm not sure what it is.
False, as post 61 demonstrates.
What? How does communication btwn to persons in the same realm outside of Heaven translate into praying to invisible created beings in Heaven from earth??? Unlike God, who alone is shown able to hear all prayer in Heaven, I only see two-way communication btwn other persons as both somehow actually being in the same realm, and apparently visibly so as i recall.
But Lk. 16:19-31 is indeed a powerful true story. May none go there.
Show me the passage where it says everything has to come from scripture. There is at least one that says scripture and oral teaching.
You are aware that Catholics were drawn and quartered in England, an attempt to exterminate them.
Show us the oral teachings of Paul.
So, I am assuming that there have never been a bad protestant leader of any kind in 2000 years. Oh, sorry they didn’t exist then!
Since you like to speak of scripture, isn’t there one that says something about throwing a stone if you are free from sin. I assume your people are perfectly holy.
As a matter of fact, possibly all of those existed before your church was even an idea.
Since you like scripture only, interpret this for me. This is my body!
Seems like a well known guy stated that once and it seems pretty straightforward to me.
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