The Rapture?

OSV.com ^ | 04-29-16 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Salvation]

The Rapture?

Q. Many of our Protestant brethren say that, before Jesus comes, there will be a rapture wherein all the faithful will be taken up, I guess, to meet Him in the sky. When I tell them that the Bible says we will “see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven” (Mt 24:30) and “he will send his angels ... and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Mt 24:31), and then ask them who will be left to “gather” if everyone has previously been “raptured,” they say it will be the Jews. What is the Church’s teaching on this? Will there even be such a thing as the rapture? I’m confused! Any light you can shed on the subject will be greatly appreciated!

Rich Willette, Springfield, Vt.

A. The notion of rapture (a Latin word that means to be snatched away) is a very novel concept among certain (not all) evangelicals. It is a notion less than 150 years old and finds no real support in the biblical text as you point out. Fundamentally, the theory asserts that before the final tribulations of the last times, faithful Christians will be snatched away. Rapture theorists disagree about the exact moment of the snatching. Some say it will be pre-tribulation, others midway through the tribulations, and some even say post-tribulation.

The root text for evangelicals who hold rapture theory is a text from the First Letter to the Thessalonians: “Indeed. we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words” (4:15-18).

The context is the second coming of Christ. There are not two second comings taught in Scripture, but rapture theory posits two — the one described in First Thessalonians and another one, some 1,000 years later. Note, too, that in First Thessalonians there is no mention of some people being left behind. There is no mention of a 1,000-year reign. Nor does St. Paul indicate that what he is describing here is a different coming of Christ, distinct from other texts in the Gospel wherein Christ describes His own second coming.

Thus we are left with a text that simply does not support what rapture theorists say. They further strive to unnaturally stitch this account with other texts in the Book of Revelation. The result is a highly debatable account of the last days that even rapture theorists hotly debate in terms of the details. The whole enterprise amounts to an attempt to shoehorn biblical passages into rapture theory that more clearly call it into question. To say the “elect” are merely the Jews is speculative at best and fanciful and contrived at worst.

As for Catholic teaching on these matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes it as follows: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [see Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. [see 2 Thes 2:4-12; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18-22]” (No. 675).

[ealgeone]

Catholics do not worship Mary anyone that says otherwise is a LIAR or an imbecile.

You keep thinking that. The actions, words, and deeds show otherwise. Unless you are willing to say the rcc is in error on the following:

It has always been the habit of Catholics in danger and in troublous times to fly for refuge to Mary, and to seek for peace in her maternal goodness; showing that the Catholic Church has always, and with justice, put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01091883_supremi-apostolatus-officio.html

And as you know...there's a whole lot more of those quotes.

[verga]

Catholics do not worship Mary, anyone that says otherwise is a liar or an imbecile. For those that aren’t paying close attention p[lease tell them which category you fit into.

[metmom]

God is the only one who establishes sets of rules.

Catholics clearly violate the second Commandment.

Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Catholics do this.....

And there are plenty more pictures of people kneeling and praying to images of Mary without having their heads bowed.

But knowing the neighborhood and the nit-picky attitude some people have, I didn't post those because those people weren't technically bowing.

But if it looks like worship and it sounds like worship, then any Catholics is going to have a tough time maintaining their credibility when they claim that Catholics don't worship Mary when the actions of people indicate they do.

All an individual can claim is that they themselves don't worship Mary as they don't know what's in the heart of those others engaging in actions of worship.

Just like we get chastised that we can't know what's in others hearts when we saw Catholics worship Mary, then no Catholics can say they aren't cause they don't know what's in other's hearts either.

That sword cuts both ways.

[verga]

Catholics do not worship Mary, anyone that says otherwise is a liar or an imbecile. For those that aren’t paying close attention please tell them which category you fit into.

[ealgeone]

It has always been the habit of Catholics in danger and in troublous times to fly for refuge to Mary, and to seek for peace in her maternal goodness; showing that the Catholic Church has always, and with justice,

put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01091883_supremi-apostolatus-officio.html

Now contrast the false teaching of catholicism with the Word.

And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' Matthew 22:37

Only one of these is correct.

I stand with Christ and Christ alone.

Where do you stand?

[verga]

They say that insanity is defined as repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, I would say that repeating the same lie over and over is also as sure sign. Since Catholics Do not worship Mary, why are you repeating the same lie over and over?

What does that say about the mental health of non-Catholics tha continue to spread these lies?

[ealgeone]

You've been given two chances to deny the Catholic position on Mary. I would think someone who claims they don't worship Mary would easily be able to answer the two questions you were asked.

Especially the last question you were asked.

Your silence is your answer.

[MHGinTN]

LOL ... “To say the least, said poster has failed in trying to substantiate that claim — even to the point of making an attempt.” Wrestling with a pig gets mud on your sleeves and the pig loves the attention. To you I wouldn’t waste time sharing anything I have studied. Are you a Preterist or partial preterist? You certainly are one to mischaracterize for your ego’s sake ... your first name wouldn’t be Hank, would it?

[CpnHook]

To you I wouldn’t waste time sharing anything I have studied.

It's clear I caught you making a claim you can't substantiate, you've got nothing that will withstand scrutiny, and now you're employing the "posture and avoid" technique by going ad hominem on me.

I haven't mischaracterized anything. I said you would come up short on proof of your claim that the Pre-Trib Rapture was espoused in the Patristic Era. And you've failed just as I predicted.

So why not share what you have studied for the benefit of others who believe in a PTR?

See, I don't think you've studied this. You've merely read something done by another person and are mindlessly parroting what that person claimed.

[MHGinTN]

Ah, the old ‘see if we can bait a response we can ridicule’ approach. well, Hank, you can deny it all you want but your own posts tell the truth about you: “To say the least, said poster has failed in trying to substantiate that claim” I have not tried to substantiate any claim with ‘an ego pig’. When you purposely mischaracterize it exposes the real spirit that is within you ...

[Iscool]

Just recently (somewhere) another statue of Mary which was bleeding actual blood from its eyes was discovered and Catholics by the thousands traveled to the location to 'venerate' the miraculous statue...

While Catholics are taught there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture they understand they will go through the Tribulation...

They will then have the opportunity to witness the greatest statue transformation of all...

Rev. 13:11
Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people.
14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Every Catholic in the Tribulation will worship that speaking statue or be killed...They are certainly being pre-conditioned for that event...

[Elsie]

ealgeone; metmom, silence prove me correct.

Hold this thought...

[CpnHook]

When you purposely mischaracterize it exposes the real spirit that is within you ...

And what have I mischaracterized? Here's your claim (Post 103):

"Not only are there many references in early church writings, but the pre-trib notion is also found early on in church History[.]"

So there's your claim. And I quoted that sentence verbatim (so no mischaracterization on my part). And you made that claim on a discussion/debate forum where one's claims are subject to being challenged. But the moment you got challenged you got whiny and started beating the retreat.

So my merely factual statement that you haven't been able to substantiate your claim (nor even make an attempt) stands as true.

Here's a helpful suggestion. If you don't like having your claims challenged on a public forum, then don't make claims on a public forum you can't defend.

Capiche?

[Elsie]

Metmom established a set of rules.

All we want is to SEE them.

Did someone once say, "Put up or something else?"

[Elsie]

Sauce for the goose is good for the gander.

So; you ARE going to operate like this now?

[Elsie]

Catholics do not worship Mary anyone that says otherwise is a LIAR or an imbecile.

Could you do the research and separate these folks into the L category or the I one for us??

Thanks in advance.

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Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS. Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED. 

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

(Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

She says, "He that shall find Me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord.   "Qui me invenerit, inveniet vitam, et hauriet salutem a Domino."

Listen," exclaims St. Bonaventure on these words, "listen, all you who desire the kingdom of God: honor the most Blessed Virgin Mary, and you will find life and eternal salvation."  "Audite qui ingredi cupitis regnum Dei: Virginem Mariam honorate, et invenietis vitam et salutem perpetuam."-psalt. B.V.ps.48.

 

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven. Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

 

“The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Supreme Apostolatus, September 1, 1883.) — [p. 32, no. 104]

“... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God so that the Church even addressed to her the words with which we pray to God: ‘Have mercy on sinners.’”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Augustissimae, September 12, 1897.) [p. 68; no. 302]

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"Only She Can Help You"
by Father Nicholas Gruner, S.T.L., S.T.D. (Cand.)
In this letter introducing The Fatima Crusader Issue 38, Father Gruner discusses the growing lies and deception about Russia's errors and the consecration of that nation. He also reminds us that, while it is urgent that we be informed about and fight for Our Lady's cause, we must ask for Her help and intercession.

In the Fatima sanctuary, at the exact spot where Our Lady appeared, Father Gruner pays homage to Her while touching the original statue of Fatima. Father Gruner was recently graced with this rare opportunity since normally this sacred image is always protected by a glass covering which completely surrounds it all day long.

Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
In this article taken from The Glories of Mary, Saint Alphonsus explains that there are countless souls in Heaven who are there now only because Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them there. If a soul persists in true devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, She will certainly lead that soul to Heaven.

 

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The Rosary
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is greatly important that Our Lady insisted on the Rosary. When at Fatima She spoke of the salvation of sinners, of the ruin of souls in hell, of wars and peace, and of the future of our age. Our Lady indicated and recommended the Rosary as the prayer that saves, that brings peace, that preserves the faith.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is truly a treasure to have a strong devotion to Our Lady, for it is She who unites us to Jesus and brings us to Heaven, as this article explains.

Mary, Our Life, Our Sweetness, Our Hope
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
St. Alphonsus de Liguori explains how Mary is our life, how She is our sweetness, and how She is our hope.

The historical record of the worship of Mary accumulated by St. Alphonsus de Liguori who wrote “The Glories of Mary” in the year 1745, which has been since translated into English and printed again and again and again with the full affirmation and imprimatur of the official Roman Catholic Church.  In this book there is the sum of all the glories of Mary which has been vouchsafe to the Roman Catholic Church and the Church itself calls upon all its constituents to give Mary that honor she is due.  She is identified as Mary, our Queen; Mary, our mother; Mary, our life; Mary, our sweetness; Mary, our hope; Mary, our help; Mary, our Mediatress; Mary, our advocate; Mary, our guardian; and Mary, our salvation.  It is said that Mary delivers us from hell, Mary delivers us from purgatory, and Mary leads us to heaven.  And it should be said that de Liguori, who collected all the Marion dogma and devotion, was himself one of the most celebrated and revered authorities in the Roman Catholic Church.  De Liguori was himself a cardinal in life, and a saint in death.

 

Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing". In this crisis which looms ahead of us, Our Lady has told us that we need Her help, Her intercession. We must ask for Her help with the Rosary and the Scapular.

At Fatima, Our Lady told us very plainly that "Only I can help you". Today more than ever is this so true.

Pray the Rosary and sacrifice yourself for Our Lady.

I urge you to also make some sacrifices as Our Lady of Fatima asked us. For those who are able, do some fasting. If you can, abstain from meat by eating meat only during one meal a day. Try to do this for two days, even ten days or 30 days. Of course we should abstain totally from meat every Friday.

 

 Jesus and Mary — Our Hope

It is so urgent that we reach as many souls as possible before it is too late. Let us be of good cheer and remember the words of Jesus to each of us, "It's never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary." That is why it is so important to reach the many millions of souls who do not know this, and who do not know the grave dangers lying in wait for their souls.

No, we must never lose hope. Mary is our hope. She can obtain for us what we cannot by ourselves. Read what St. Alphonsus has to say regarding confidence in Our Lady's intercession in "Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven". Father Manelli also reminds us of the importance of devotion to Our Lady. (See "Hail Mary, Full of Grace"). Our Blessed Mother tells us to turn to Her in confidence. She tells us repeatedly to ask Her intercession through the frequent fervent praying of the Rosary. (See "The Rosary"). She tells us we must pray the Rosary every day. She wants us to pray it many times a day.

 

http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg2.asp

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"Blessed is he whose interior offers the Blessed Virgin Mary a place of repose." Devotion towards the Blessed Virgin remains in all who are the inheritance of Our Lord; that is to say, in all who will praise Him eternally in Heaven.

O, how many blessed souls are now in Heaven who would never have been there had not Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them thither. I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth. Cardinal Hugo, in his commentary on the above text of Ecclesiasticus, says in the name of Mary, "I have caused as many saints in Heaven through Her intercession, who would never have been there but through Her ."

...in the words of St. Ambrose, "Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since Thou hast its keys." "Aperi nobis, O Virgo coelum, cujus claves habes." Nay more, the Church says, that "Thou art its gate." 

St. Antoninus tells us "that this divine Mother has already, by Her assistance and prayers, obtained Heaven for us, provided we put no obstacle in the way."23 Hence, says Abbot Guerric, "he who serves Mary, and for whom She intercedes, is as certain of Heaven as if he was already there."24 St. John Damascene also says, "that to serve Mary and be Her courtier is the greatest honor we can possibly possess; for to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign there, and live under Her commands is more than to govern."25 On the other hand, he adds, "that those who do not serve Mary will not be saved; for those who are deprived of the help of this great Mother are also deprived of that of Her Son and of the whole court of heaven."26

 23.  "Coeleste nobis regnum, suo interventu auxiliis, et precibus, impetravit."—Paciucch. Sup. Salve Reg. exc. I.
 24. "Qui Virgini famulatur, ita securus est de paradiso, ac si esset in paradiso."
 25. "Summus honor, servire Mariæ, et de ejus esse familia; etenim ei servire, regnare est; et ejus agi frænis, summa libertas."
 26. "Gens quæ non servierit illi, peribit; gentes destitutæ tantæ Matris auxilio, destituuntur auxilio Filii et totius curi’‘ coelestis."— De Laud. B. M. I. 4.

Cardinal Hugo http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg3.asp 

[Elsie]

They say that insanity is defined as repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...

 

 

HMMMmmm...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Catholics do not worship Mary anyone that says otherwise is a LIAR or an imbecile.

480 posted on ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2016‎ ‎7‎:‎50‎:‎11‎ ‎AM by verga (In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.)

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 479 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

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To: ealgeone

Catholics do not worship Mary, anyone that says otherwise is a liar or an imbecile. For those that aren’t paying close attention p[lease tell them which category you fit into.

482 posted on ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2016‎ ‎8‎:‎14‎:‎44‎ ‎AM by verga (In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.)

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 481 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

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To: metmom

Catholics do not worship Mary, anyone that says otherwise is a liar or an imbecile. For those that aren’t paying close attention please tell them which category you fit into.

484 posted on ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2016‎ ‎8‎:‎33‎:‎22‎ ‎AM by verga (In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.)

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 483 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

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Catholics do not worship Mary anyone that says otherwise is a LIAR or an imbecile.

Catholics do not worship Mary, anyone that says otherwise is a liar or an imbecile. For those that aren’t paying close attention p[lease tell them which category you fit into.

Catholics do not worship Mary, anyone that says otherwise is a liar or an imbecile. For those that aren’t paying close attention please tell them which category you fit into.

[verga]

All we want is to SEE them. Did someone once say, "Put up or something else?"

Ask metmom or eagleone. I sent Eagle the entire exchange.

[MHGinTN]

Ah, true to form you double down on the baiting effort.

As I previously posted to you, I was anticipating a discussion of the notion of imminency, as taught by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and found in Jude, but alas, it was your ego which you wanted to air, not a discussion.

Here is a taste of what would have been included: Paul's exhortation to the Thessalonians to 'watch and be sober'(1Thess5:6) is unrealistic and his promise that the church is not appointed to wrath (5:9) is misleading if the Rapture is not imminent. Having assumed their understanding of his teaching when present with them, he gave an assumed assurance in 1Thess1:9&10, regarding the wrath to come, from which Jesus has delivered them.

[Elsie]

Ask metmom or eagleone. I sent Eagle the entire exchange.

Why would I take HIS word on what YOU 'allegedly' sent.

Are you REFUSING to answer the question?