The Gospel Part 5: Reconciling Faith And Works

Unsealed.org ^ | 5/19/16 | Gary

[amessenger4god]

Faith vs. works.  Christians have debated this topic for two thousand years and still do.  At the heart of the debate you have two (seemingly) opposing sides:

Team Faith says works are not required for salvation.  Salvation is received by grace through faith alone (John 6:28-29, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:21).  They believe that making works a requirement for salvation ignores the very message of the Gospel that Jesus died for our sins and rose again (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), which the Apostle Paul calls "of first importance."  This is Christianity 101.  If Jesus died for your sins as a substitutionary sacrifice how can sin or lack of works now separate the Believer from God since our sins were the very reason He died?  Isn't the point of the Cross that under the law works were a requirement for salvation and because we couldn't keep the law perfectly (James 2:10) Jesus did it for us?

Team Works doesn't deny that faith is necessary for salvation, but adds performing good works and/or avoiding sin enough as necessary components of salvation.  The works-righteousness side relies heavily on James 2:14-24 and Philippians 2:12, which both prima facie seem to indicate the opposite of such often referenced sola fide verses as Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:5.  This is the position taken by Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologians, as well as some Protestants such as N.T. Wright.

While there are essentially two sides to the debate, there are actually three ways to explain the relationship between faith and works, because Team Faith can be further split into two categories: first, those who think that faith and salvation have no relationship to works and thus grace is a license to sin (these are called antinomians: anti = against and nomian = law, so "against law").  Second, those who believe we are saved by faith alone, but the type of faith that saves is a faith that consequentially results in obedience to God and thus good works.  The second view differentiates between a professed faith and a penitent faith.  To summarize the three views:

1. Faith + works = salvation.  This is Team Works and is the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church per the sixth session of the Council of Trent (1547).  Eastern Orthodox and some Protestant churches also subscribe to this view.  It uses James 2:14-24 as the chief proof text.

2. Faith = salvation - works.  This is one of the two camps in Team Faith.  Unfortunately for this team, it is condemned at least twice in the Bible (Romans 6:1-2, Jude 1:4), and universally by the early Church.  The Bible repeatedly describes the Believer's life as characterized by love and good deeds - avoidance of sin and works stemming from faith.  For this reason antinomianism is not compatible with God's Word.  There are virtually no denominations or churches that officially subscribe to this view, although there are a large and growing number of churches and professing Christians who in practice are antinomians because they justify things that the Bible clearly defines as sin (e.g. homosexuality, adultery, abortion, obscenity, etc).

3. Faith = salvation + works.  This is the position held by a large majority of Protestant groups including Evangelicals, Anglicans, Pentecostals, and Lutherans.  It is also the official position of most Protestant denominations even if many Protestants themselves may reject the view in favor of either view #1 or view #2.  In my understanding this is also the view espoused in the Bible and in the early Church, which over centuries was diluted until Luther and Melanchthon attempted to restore the doctrine to the Church.  Galatians 2:11-3:26, Romans 3:21-5:2, and Ephesians 2:8-9 are proof texts.

For argument's sake let's all agree that view #2 is not biblical and is in fact heresy (as evidenced by many of the same scriptures that view #1 emphasizes).  We are left with #1 and #3.  Here are the reasons why I believe #3 is the biblical view:

1. It is the only view that can reconcile all scriptures.  View #1 can only sustain itself by ignoring and de-emphasizing literally dozens and dozens of scriptures that indicate salvation is wrought by faith in or belief in Jesus.  Some of the passages ignored include long discourses on faith apart from works such as the aforementioned Galatians 2:11-3:26 and Romans 3:21-5:2.  View #3 can actually reconcile James 2:14-24 prima facie, whereas view #1 cannot reconcile the Galatians, Romans, and Ephesians passages prima facie.  View #3 can also reconcile Philippians 2:12, because the Greek κατεργάζεσθε means "work out" (your salvation), not "work for" (your salvation).

2. It is the only view that preserves the simple Gospel message.  In 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 the Gospel is defined simply as Jesus dying for our sins, being buried, and rising again.  Arguing that not sinning or avoiding sin enough is how one obtains eternal life makes the Gospel pointless since that is the very reason Christ died (Galatians 2:21).  View #1 proponents attempt in a variety of ways to explain how we are saved by God's grace yet works are also necessary, but as the Apostle Paul explains, any mixture of grace and works defeats the very meaning of grace in the first place (Romans 11:6).  Paul appears to demonstrate the absurd dichotomy between faith and works in Galatians 3:1-6.  You can't have it both ways.  There is no compromise.  You can't simultaneously maintain that Jesus paid the price for your sins and yet you still have to pay.

3. It is the only view that correctly understands and defines grace.  The Bible is crystal clear that we are saved by God's grace which came through Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection.  Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this.  Yet, because of the absurdity of saying we are saved by grace and works, some theologians have changed the basic, general understanding of what the word grace means.  In a dictionary or in common conversation grace simply means "unmerited favor" or "undeserved kindness."  Yet to the works-righteousness theologian they tag "sanctifying" onto "grace" to define it as something else entirely: fuel in your spiritual tank to keep you going.

4. Sola fide has more supporting scriptures.  I don't offer this as proof because every verse must be accounted for, but for argument's sake, even if every verse that indicated works were necessary and every verse that indicated faith was necessary could not be reconciled, sola fide would still have more supporting verses.

There are 24 verses that seem to indicate the necessity of works:

James 2:14
James 2:20
James 2:24
James 2:26
Revelation 2:23
Revelation 3:2
Matthew 3:10 (good fruit necessary)
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 13:41 (all who do evil)
Luke 3:9 (good fruit necessary)
Philippians 2:12
Hebrews 10:26 (any sin after conversion; see Hebrews 10:39)
Revelation 20:12 (judged according to deeds)
Revelation 20:13 (judged according to deeds)
1 John 2:4
1 John 2:5
1 John 3:6 (no one who continues to sin)
1 John 3:7
1 John 3:8
1 John 3:9 (no one who continues to sin)
1 John 3:15
1 John 4:20
1 John 5:18 (no one who continues to sin)
3 John 1:11

Yet there are 88 verses that indicate the exclusive necessity of grace, faith, or belief (x represents where condemnation is actually tied to unbelief rather than bad deeds):

John 6:29
Romans 3:20
Romans 3:28
Romans 4:2
Romans 4:6
Romans 9:32 X
Romans 11:6
Galatians 2:16 X
Galatians 3:2
Galatians 3:5
Galatians 3:10 X
Ephesians 2:9
Matthew 9:2
Mark 2:5
Luke 5:20
Luke 7:50
Acts 15:9
Acts 20:21
Acts 26:18
Romans 1:17
Romans 3:22
Romans 3:25
Romans 3:26
Romans 3:27
Romans 3:30
Romans 4:5
Romans 4:9
Romans 4:11
Romans 4:13
Romans 4:14
Romans 4:16
Romans 5:1
Romans 5:2
Romans 9:30
Romans 10:10
Romans 11:20
Galatians 3:8
Galatians 2:21
Galatians 3:11 X
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:22
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 3:26
Galatians 5:6
Ephesians 2:8
Ephesians 3:12
Ephesians 3:17
Philippians 3:9
2 Timothy 3:15
Hebrews 10:39 X
1 Peter 1:9
Luke 8:12 X
John 1:12
John 3:15
John 3:16
John 3:18 X
John 3:36 X
John 5:24
John 6:29
John 6:40
John 6:47
John 8:24 X
John 11:25
John 11:26
John 20:31
Acts 10:43
Acts 11:17
Acts 13:39 X
Acts 15:11
Acts 16:31
Romans 1:16
Romans 4:3
Romans 4:24
Romans 9:33
Romans 10:4
Romans 10:9
Romans 10:11
1 Corinthians 1:21
1 Corinthians 15:2 X
Ephesians 1:13
2 Thessalonians 2:12 X
2 Thessalonians 2:13
1 Timothy 1:16
Hebrews 4:3 X
James 2:23
1 John 5:1
1 John 5:5
1 John 5:13
Hebrews 3:19 X

And since there are 88 verses that indicate grace, faith, or belief are exclusively necessary for salvation, and 0 verses indicating the necessity of works apart from faith, that tells me the biblical equation cannot be faith + works = salvation.

Take a look at this very quick video explanation of how faith and works relate.

[MHGinTN]

And it won't do any good to try and explain to the cult mind SP that the Bema Seat takes place in Heaven, for those Raptured away from the wrath being poured out on Earth, and the Great White Throne takes place on Earth after all the wrath and remarking of the Planet and the Reign of Jesus has run on Earth for a thousand years and is the final judgment of those who are not the OT believers, the Church Age believers, and those saints who come out of the Great Tribulation because they call upon The Lord to save them.

It is interesting how the cult mind of a Mormon conflates two separate judgments, twists the words of Charles Stanley, then demand someone address the specious conflation as if it were truth. And the poster actually believes he has twist C. Stanley around to agreeing with him! Amazing that ... truly, some want to believe 'the lie'. They're not even waiting for the 'strong delusion'!

[daniel1212]

I'm curious Daniel, do you also believe Abraham was a carnal prophet who is in Hell?

What kind of logical argument is that? Do you really think you can equate Joseph Smith to Abraham? Do you???

[daniel1212]

that they realized final salvation because their works testified to them having real faith, which faith=works God rewards, though man owes all to Him, while what man deserve is damnation?

That's the eternal law. Pretty good description.

Therefore this formal declaration "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" only confirmed what they already had, they were already separated as sheep, and was not that of Jesus granting salvation at the judgment after His commandments were followed, since they already had salvation by faith, which their works testified to. Which is what sola fide teaches. Man is declared to be saved by faith, but the promise of salvation is also given to those who obey, since this confirms faith and justifies one as being an elect believer, but works are not the actual cause of salvation.

[Elsie]

Or has Dr. Stanley taught you something and you're just too proud to admit it???

HMMMmmm...

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“The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height.

 

http://www.mrm.org/moon-men

[Elsie]

Among the Southern Baptist, the Pentecostals were considered crazy as bed bugs.

Yeah...

...but were they WHORES; too??

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

 

 

 

 

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Here is MORMONism's own creed:

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Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

[Elsie]

That's the eternal law.

And here is an 'eternal' covenant...

The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501 - 7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

.

.

.

58 - 66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

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58 Now, as touching the law of the ^apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.

59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was ^aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that ^bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ^ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit ^dsin, and I will justify him.

60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood: "if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse ^aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ^aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to ^amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be ^bglorified.

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take ^aHagar to wife.

66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

[Elsie]

I'm curious Daniel, do you also believe Abraham was a carnal prophet who is in Hell?

I'm curious StormPrepper, do you believe the BOOK of Abraham is an accurate translation by Joseph Smith of THIS?

[Elsie]

Now why did you bring up ISIS ???

Now Nana...

Don't you LIKE red herring?

[Elsie]

...but works are not the actual cause of salvation.

I doubt this'll sink in to one who has been prepared from birth to go on the MORMON 'mission' field when they are eligible to do so.

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Missionary Guide Rules                                             https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/topics/missionary/MissionaryHandbook2006Navigate.pdf

1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
4. Don't debate or argue.
5. Center your mind on your mission.
6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
7. Cut your hair regularly.
8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
9. Be neat and clean.
10. Bathe frequently.
11. Use deodorant.
12. Polish your shoes.
13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
18. Exercise regularly.
19. Write in your journal regularly.
20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
36. Do not go on road trips.
37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission
38. Do not watch television.
39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
40. Do not listen to the radio.
41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
42. Do not participate in musical groups.
43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
45. Do not engage in contact sports.
46. Do not engage in water sports.
47. Do not engage in winter sports.
48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
51. Do not embark on a private boat.
52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
53. Do not handle firearms.
54. Do not handle explosives.
55. Do not swim.
56. Do not play full court basketball.
57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
59. You may play half-court basketball.
60. Never be alone.
61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
62. Be loyal to your companion.
63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
64. Pray with your companion every day.
65. Study with your companion every day.
66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
72. Do not arise before your companion.
73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
77. Do not flirt.
78. Do not date.
79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
90. Do not telephone parents
91. Do not telephone relatives.
92. Do not telephone friends.
93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
98. Obey all mission rules.
99. Obey the laws of the land.
100. Do not get involved in politics.
101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
102. Do not give any information about the area.
103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
108. Be courteous.
109. Provide community service.
110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
114. Keep your housing unit clean.
115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
121. Maintain your health.
122. Eat a healthy diet.
123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
124. Follow the approved exercise program.
125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
129. Be immunized.
130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
131. Budget your money carefully.
132. Keep a record of what you spend.
133. Do not spend more than your companion.
134. Do not loan money.
135. Do not borrow money.
136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
141. Be a frugal photographer.
142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
147. Do not drive without a license.
148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
149. Do not drive members’ cars.
150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
155. Drive defensively.
156. Wear your seat belt.
157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
160. Know bicycle safety rules.
161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

[StormPrepper]

you were the one who brought up ISIS back in your #61..

Because the analogy is both relevant and accurate.

That's the exact rational of the Jihad movement. They bring violence to whomever they think is an enemy to God. So it's ironic that you bring up ISIS.

You have publicly advocated violence against anyone that doesn't believe like you do. Specifically, you have justified the use of violence against me and members of my Church. So does ISIS.

Your words were plain and explicit. No back-peddling from it.

That's the very definition of an evil person.

Matt 5:
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Did you or or father try to make peace with that preacher? No, you viciously attacked him, in fact could have killed him. You're not a peacemaker.

Matt 18
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Do you forgive others their trespasses? No, you try to justify violence against them.

Matt 5:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

What did that protestant preacher ever really do to you? Or for that matter what has any Mormon actually done to you? In your own words, we are guilty of only one thing, we don't accept your interpretation of scripture...and to you, in your own words, is worth being beaten to death over.

My question still stands, if a Muslim came to your door begging for food, would you feed him?

[StormPrepper]

[sp]I'm curious Daniel, do you also believe Abraham was a carnal prophet who is in Hell?

[daniel1212]What kind of logical argument is that? Do you really think you can equate Joseph Smith to Abraham? Do you???

Please leave the straw man out in the corn field. You're arguing against something I haven't said.

I'll ask it again to shift the focus back to what was actually said, "Daniel, do you also believe Abraham was a carnal prophet who is in Hell?"

[MHGinTN]

Do you believe the Lorenzo Snow couplet?

[Tennessee Nana]

Let’s know how all those “Syrian refugees” you take in to your house work out...

how your wife and teenage daughters fared...

which way Mecca is in your man cave...

[daniel1212]

Never be alone.

Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.

Only write letters to family members and friends at home.

Do not telephone

parents

relatives.

friends

girlfriends

Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.

Do not listen to the radio.

Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.

[daniel1212]

Please leave the straw man out in the corn field. You're arguing against something I haven't said. I'll ask it again to shift the focus back to what was actually said, "Daniel, do you also believe Abraham was a carnal prophet who is in Hell?"

Why should i even answer such an absurd question? Just state your argument.

[cherry]

I am sick of people saying they're Christian, being "born again" and they lie, cheat, belittle,are hateful, greedy, arrogant....

if your "faith" allows you to live like that, then its not "faith"...

If you say you're a Christian, then you must LIVE IT..

and that means "works"...

of course you can have people that do the outward "works" just to look good....

[StormPrepper]

Why should i even answer such an absurd question? Just state your argument.

You shouldn't because the response traps you no matter what your answer is.

The gospel as restored by the prophet Joseph Smith links all doctrines and commandments of God into one great whole. In other words there's continuity between our doctrine and all the doctrines taught through out the ages from all the true prophets of God.

What you won't find is continuity any of the beliefs or belief systems as taught by any of the people currently debating me in these threads.

I don't have to dodge any historical event or scripture. Nor can any scripture or doctrine trap me because all my doctrine is interlinked.

I have two points. First, I don't have dodge these questions but you do. That should be a red flag.

Second, you can't call one man carnal for having multiple wives without calling everyone with multiple wives carnal. Well, unless you openly admit to being a hypocrite.

Daniel1212 I have always had a high regard for your ability to reason. I don't like it when you say nasty things, it detracts from that opinion.

[StormPrepper]

which way Mecca is in your man cave...

I'm going to assume then that your answer is no, you wouldn't feed a Muslim that came to your door begging for food.

I boldly proclaim that I would feed any person that came to my door begging for food. As a matter of fact, I just bought enough land to grow more than a years supply of food. And that's exactly what I'm going to do. I know that eventually I will have neighbors that will need it. And some of them might be Catholic or some of them might be Muslim, doesn't matter.

Even you TN, even though you hate me through and through, I would still feed you and take you in, no questions asked.

I'm not bragging. I'm testifying that God lives and that Jesus Christ is His beloved Son. I follow my Heavenly Father's commandments and that means I feed the hungry and clothe the naked to glorify His name.

[Tennessee Nana]

and like Daniel I would not accept your dainty titbits...

your price to sell my soul to the devil is too high..

I’d rather starve..

[daniel1212]

You shouldn't because the response traps you no matter what your answer is.

Which is as absurd as when RCs say the like, as in both cases the assertion rests upon a fallacious premise. Abraham being a prophet of God does not translate into Smith being one, regardless of how much you may want to believe and assert it.

The gospel as restored by the prophet Joseph Smith links all doctrines and commandments of God into one great whole. In other words there's continuity between our doctrine and all the doctrines taught through out the ages from all the true prophets of God.

Which pure propaganda is begging the question. Elitist Smith contradicted Scripture beginning from the time of sppsd encounter with the angel "Moroni," but as with Rome, since the LDS "one true church" is the faithful interpreter then Scripture cannot be allowed to contradict her.

What you won't find is continuity any of the beliefs or belief systems as taught by any of the people currently debating me in these threads.

If you do say so.

I don't have to dodge any historical event or scripture. Nor can any scripture or doctrine trap me because all my doctrine is interlinked.

Pure bombast. You had best dodge the lie of God being an exalted polygamous man via progression to Godhead, of Lucifer being the brother of Christ, or the fantastic fable of an immigration of Hebrews to South America, which supposedly formed a vast society, and that after a tremendous civil war one tribe of this fictitious people is said to have migrated to N. America, even to New York. Etc.

I have two points. First, I don't have dodge these questions but you do. That should be a red flag.

There is no dodge except on your part, but not suffering fools gladly. I asked you right off "Do you really think you can equate Joseph Smith to Abraham? Do you???" which you would not answer, but asked an absurd question based upon another fallacious premise. That is a red flag.

Second, you can't call one man carnal for having multiple wives without calling everyone with multiple wives carnal. Well, unless you openly admit to being a hypocrite.

Which is that fallacious premise, as i nowhere called or argued that Smith was carnal because he was a polygamist. His carnality is abundantly evidenced besides his manner of polygamy, while God always was God, and is not a product of eternal progression, with multiple wives.

The God of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible nor even that of FR. The only flag that you have is that of a false prophet.