The Gospel Part 5: Reconciling Faith And Works

Unsealed.org ^ | 5/19/16 | Gary

[amessenger4god]

Faith vs. works.  Christians have debated this topic for two thousand years and still do.  At the heart of the debate you have two (seemingly) opposing sides:

Team Faith says works are not required for salvation.  Salvation is received by grace through faith alone (John 6:28-29, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:21).  They believe that making works a requirement for salvation ignores the very message of the Gospel that Jesus died for our sins and rose again (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), which the Apostle Paul calls "of first importance."  This is Christianity 101.  If Jesus died for your sins as a substitutionary sacrifice how can sin or lack of works now separate the Believer from God since our sins were the very reason He died?  Isn't the point of the Cross that under the law works were a requirement for salvation and because we couldn't keep the law perfectly (James 2:10) Jesus did it for us?

Team Works doesn't deny that faith is necessary for salvation, but adds performing good works and/or avoiding sin enough as necessary components of salvation.  The works-righteousness side relies heavily on James 2:14-24 and Philippians 2:12, which both prima facie seem to indicate the opposite of such often referenced sola fide verses as Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:5.  This is the position taken by Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologians, as well as some Protestants such as N.T. Wright.

While there are essentially two sides to the debate, there are actually three ways to explain the relationship between faith and works, because Team Faith can be further split into two categories: first, those who think that faith and salvation have no relationship to works and thus grace is a license to sin (these are called antinomians: anti = against and nomian = law, so "against law").  Second, those who believe we are saved by faith alone, but the type of faith that saves is a faith that consequentially results in obedience to God and thus good works.  The second view differentiates between a professed faith and a penitent faith.  To summarize the three views:

1. Faith + works = salvation.  This is Team Works and is the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church per the sixth session of the Council of Trent (1547).  Eastern Orthodox and some Protestant churches also subscribe to this view.  It uses James 2:14-24 as the chief proof text.

2. Faith = salvation - works.  This is one of the two camps in Team Faith.  Unfortunately for this team, it is condemned at least twice in the Bible (Romans 6:1-2, Jude 1:4), and universally by the early Church.  The Bible repeatedly describes the Believer's life as characterized by love and good deeds - avoidance of sin and works stemming from faith.  For this reason antinomianism is not compatible with God's Word.  There are virtually no denominations or churches that officially subscribe to this view, although there are a large and growing number of churches and professing Christians who in practice are antinomians because they justify things that the Bible clearly defines as sin (e.g. homosexuality, adultery, abortion, obscenity, etc).

3. Faith = salvation + works.  This is the position held by a large majority of Protestant groups including Evangelicals, Anglicans, Pentecostals, and Lutherans.  It is also the official position of most Protestant denominations even if many Protestants themselves may reject the view in favor of either view #1 or view #2.  In my understanding this is also the view espoused in the Bible and in the early Church, which over centuries was diluted until Luther and Melanchthon attempted to restore the doctrine to the Church.  Galatians 2:11-3:26, Romans 3:21-5:2, and Ephesians 2:8-9 are proof texts.

For argument's sake let's all agree that view #2 is not biblical and is in fact heresy (as evidenced by many of the same scriptures that view #1 emphasizes).  We are left with #1 and #3.  Here are the reasons why I believe #3 is the biblical view:

1. It is the only view that can reconcile all scriptures.  View #1 can only sustain itself by ignoring and de-emphasizing literally dozens and dozens of scriptures that indicate salvation is wrought by faith in or belief in Jesus.  Some of the passages ignored include long discourses on faith apart from works such as the aforementioned Galatians 2:11-3:26 and Romans 3:21-5:2.  View #3 can actually reconcile James 2:14-24 prima facie, whereas view #1 cannot reconcile the Galatians, Romans, and Ephesians passages prima facie.  View #3 can also reconcile Philippians 2:12, because the Greek κατεργάζεσθε means "work out" (your salvation), not "work for" (your salvation).

2. It is the only view that preserves the simple Gospel message.  In 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 the Gospel is defined simply as Jesus dying for our sins, being buried, and rising again.  Arguing that not sinning or avoiding sin enough is how one obtains eternal life makes the Gospel pointless since that is the very reason Christ died (Galatians 2:21).  View #1 proponents attempt in a variety of ways to explain how we are saved by God's grace yet works are also necessary, but as the Apostle Paul explains, any mixture of grace and works defeats the very meaning of grace in the first place (Romans 11:6).  Paul appears to demonstrate the absurd dichotomy between faith and works in Galatians 3:1-6.  You can't have it both ways.  There is no compromise.  You can't simultaneously maintain that Jesus paid the price for your sins and yet you still have to pay.

3. It is the only view that correctly understands and defines grace.  The Bible is crystal clear that we are saved by God's grace which came through Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection.  Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this.  Yet, because of the absurdity of saying we are saved by grace and works, some theologians have changed the basic, general understanding of what the word grace means.  In a dictionary or in common conversation grace simply means "unmerited favor" or "undeserved kindness."  Yet to the works-righteousness theologian they tag "sanctifying" onto "grace" to define it as something else entirely: fuel in your spiritual tank to keep you going.

4. Sola fide has more supporting scriptures.  I don't offer this as proof because every verse must be accounted for, but for argument's sake, even if every verse that indicated works were necessary and every verse that indicated faith was necessary could not be reconciled, sola fide would still have more supporting verses.

There are 24 verses that seem to indicate the necessity of works:

James 2:14
James 2:20
James 2:24
James 2:26
Revelation 2:23
Revelation 3:2
Matthew 3:10 (good fruit necessary)
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 13:41 (all who do evil)
Luke 3:9 (good fruit necessary)
Philippians 2:12
Hebrews 10:26 (any sin after conversion; see Hebrews 10:39)
Revelation 20:12 (judged according to deeds)
Revelation 20:13 (judged according to deeds)
1 John 2:4
1 John 2:5
1 John 3:6 (no one who continues to sin)
1 John 3:7
1 John 3:8
1 John 3:9 (no one who continues to sin)
1 John 3:15
1 John 4:20
1 John 5:18 (no one who continues to sin)
3 John 1:11

Yet there are 88 verses that indicate the exclusive necessity of grace, faith, or belief (x represents where condemnation is actually tied to unbelief rather than bad deeds):

John 6:29
Romans 3:20
Romans 3:28
Romans 4:2
Romans 4:6
Romans 9:32 X
Romans 11:6
Galatians 2:16 X
Galatians 3:2
Galatians 3:5
Galatians 3:10 X
Ephesians 2:9
Matthew 9:2
Mark 2:5
Luke 5:20
Luke 7:50
Acts 15:9
Acts 20:21
Acts 26:18
Romans 1:17
Romans 3:22
Romans 3:25
Romans 3:26
Romans 3:27
Romans 3:30
Romans 4:5
Romans 4:9
Romans 4:11
Romans 4:13
Romans 4:14
Romans 4:16
Romans 5:1
Romans 5:2
Romans 9:30
Romans 10:10
Romans 11:20
Galatians 3:8
Galatians 2:21
Galatians 3:11 X
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:22
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 3:26
Galatians 5:6
Ephesians 2:8
Ephesians 3:12
Ephesians 3:17
Philippians 3:9
2 Timothy 3:15
Hebrews 10:39 X
1 Peter 1:9
Luke 8:12 X
John 1:12
John 3:15
John 3:16
John 3:18 X
John 3:36 X
John 5:24
John 6:29
John 6:40
John 6:47
John 8:24 X
John 11:25
John 11:26
John 20:31
Acts 10:43
Acts 11:17
Acts 13:39 X
Acts 15:11
Acts 16:31
Romans 1:16
Romans 4:3
Romans 4:24
Romans 9:33
Romans 10:4
Romans 10:9
Romans 10:11
1 Corinthians 1:21
1 Corinthians 15:2 X
Ephesians 1:13
2 Thessalonians 2:12 X
2 Thessalonians 2:13
1 Timothy 1:16
Hebrews 4:3 X
James 2:23
1 John 5:1
1 John 5:5
1 John 5:13
Hebrews 3:19 X

And since there are 88 verses that indicate grace, faith, or belief are exclusively necessary for salvation, and 0 verses indicating the necessity of works apart from faith, that tells me the biblical equation cannot be faith + works = salvation.

Take a look at this very quick video explanation of how faith and works relate.

[Tennessee Nana]

Your grandfather and my father would have got on famously...

My own father bodily threw a Mormon type of cult member down our front steps ..

He would come to our town about once a month spewing his heresy and Joey Smith type paganry..

My father would tell him to leave to get off our property...

just like a Mormon, the guy would give my father lip as he left..

I heard my father say that he didn’t want us children to hear such unbiblical lies about God and the LORD Jesus Christ and he would instruct us later about the error that the guy had brought to our Christian front door..and where the Bible was Truth..

one day he refused to go and so my father picked the guy up over his head and threw down our 8 concrete front steps...

My father was 5’ 8” and the man was a bit bigger than Dad, but soft from glutiness living...he bounced real good...jumped up and scampered down the walk..

I think my eyes popped out of my head to see that but it taught me how important it is to protect our children from false teachers..

My father was not a violent man but he had a responsibility to get rid of the Mormon-like creature attempting to bring evil to his house ...what else could he do ???

the next month the guy sent his 4 year old son to knock on our front door and when Dad opened it he yelled blasphemy from the gate..

My father was disgusted about his use of that poor little boy who stood crying as his father damned the Christians in the house to his idea of an after life...

Yes just like the Mormons do to us Christians in these threads...

we gathered around the little boy and hugged him which he liked and he clung to us as his father went nuts..my father took him to the gate and said later that it wasn’t right to use a child that way..

Oh did the police give my father any trouble ???

Of course not the complaints were usually from the townsfolk who were Christians and were being persecuted by the Mormon ...ya know he might have been a Mormon...the act was the same...

anyhoo we saw very little of him after that I think he got run out of town ...and good riddance...

I’ll never forget the picture of my strong but gentle father tossing that satan worshipper of our land..

[CTrent1564]

MHGinTN:

Well I don’t get into discussions with Mormons about Mormominsim as it is a faith that can’t be viewed as orthodox Christianity on Trinitarian and Christological questions. With Protestants, we are at least in agreement on those issues (plus many others) but if the theology about God is unorthodox, which Mormonism is, then no need to discuss it in my view.

[Elsie]

I want to ask you a question, will you acknowledge that you will be judged by the same judgement that Christ said He would do in Matt 25: 32-46?

Fair enough...

I want to ask you a question; too.

Are the following quotes from MORMON leaders TRUE?

---

 

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

 

 

 

 

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

 

 

 

 

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

---

---

They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

---

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

 

 

 

 

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

 

[Elsie]

My father was disgusted about his use of that poor little boy who stood crying as his father damned the Christians in the house to his idea of an after life...

The BEDROCK of MORMONism!

---

 

 

 

---

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

 

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

[Elsie]

... if the theology about God is unorthodox, which Mormonism is, then no need to discuss it in my view.

Well; the 'view' of a LOT of folks is they have no clue as to what ORTHODOX even MEANS!

No one comes into this world knowing about any 'religion'.

It is ONLY by learning about them can one make an informed decision which; if any; are true.

[StormPrepper]

If you had even a rudimentary understanding of The Grace of God in Christ you would have a clue as to why I will not be at that judgment.

Then maybe you should go and tell the other "christians" about this new revelation you've had about how they won't be judged. Because obviously, according to you, they don't have a clue either...

And since you're at odds with the rest of the "christians", you must be a cult member. So, get the hence, evil cult person! /sarc

How will Believers Be Judged, by Charles Stanley[quote] "Scripture reveals that Jesus Christ will judge every person who has ever lived (Acts 10:42). Those who refuse His offer of salvation face the white throne judgment—the unbelievers’ last stop before an eternity of exile from God’s presence. Believers will also stand before Jesus, at which time they’ll finally come to full comprehension of His extravagant grace.

In 1 Corinthians 4:5, Paul asserts that Jesus will disclose the motives hidden in believers’ hearts. Some people have gotten the misguided idea that all their sins will be displayed for everyone to see, but the Bible in no way supports that notion.

Jesus will reveal the true nature of a believer’s heart to him or her. Every rebellious act, wrong attitude, and cutting word will be reviewed. When the Bible says that Jesus will wipe the tears from our eyes, it is referring to this time (Isaiah 25:8). We’ll be standing in the holy Savior’s presence, grieving over how undeserving we are of His sacrifice. But the sorrow will last only a moment. On its heels comes the tremendous joy of having received forgiveness and lived a life pleasing to Him. Christ’s judgment is not a punishment; it is a reminder that we are pardoned. At last, we will fully realize the depth and breadthof His grace.

Believers need not cower or hang their heads during the judgment. Nor are we to repent—the time for that is past. We will stand before the Lord, clothed in Christ’s righteousness and forgiven of every single sin. And we will at last comprehend how great is the love of our God for us."[close quote]

Hopefully some day you'll leave this destructive cult you're involved with, renounce these heresies you speak and join Charles Stanley.... Before TN's dad comes and beats you up.

[StormPrepper]

Your grandfather and my father would have got on famously...

and probably ISIS too...

Back to your old vile ways huh TN?

So your dad tried to kill a Pentecostal tent preacher for preaching at him... and your reaction is to say "he bounced real good."..really?

And then try to claim this poor man was "Mormon like" in order to project his failings on to us.

Sounds like you advocate violence against Mormons.

I'm curious, do you hate Jews too?

[MHGinTN]

From your ‘quote’ of Charles Stanley: “Believers will also stand before Jesus, at which time they’ll finally come to full comprehension of His extravagant grace.” This will occur in Heaven, while on earth the seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy is happening. Do you know the temporal anchor for when the Great White Throne of Judgment happens?

[Tennessee Nana]

No kid

sounds like you should have listened to your grandfather..

we were the Pentecostals..I said we were CHRISTIANS...

and the guy didn’t have a tent..

the guy storming our front door was a mormon-type...

He was the dangerous one..

and my father was protecting his family from the ISIS form of religion much like the Mormons try to force on Christians..

and Jews ??? Stormy youre pulling out all the desperate stops..

Mormonism is closer to Islam than Judaism..

We were the Jews being tormented by the Nazi-Mormon...

Except my father was the standard bearer for the LORD Jesus Christ and our family...

Just as your wonderful grandfather was for you...

the difference being I was proud of my father and appreciated what he did for me about the enemies of God at our door...

That 2nd Mohammad that your Joey Smith wanted to be was not exactly an example of a Christian gentleman, what with his adultery, fornication, drugs, murder, mayhem, false prophecies, thievery, scams, thuggery, gang warfare...

[MHGinTN]

Well! Now you’ve done it. Prepare to meet the tar baby and the numerous ‘look over there’ typical Mormon responses, all designed to prevent a Mormon from seeing the truth sbout the heart of their cult, which heart is the great lie that God is not ONE, the god of Mormonism is three different gods, and men can become future gods if they work out their exaltation as Mormonism teaches the father of Jesus and Jesus have done. Remember Lorenzo Snow’s little couplet ... ‘as we are now, god once was; as god is now we can be.’

[Elsie]

Hopefully some day you'll leave this destructive cult you're involved with,

HMMMmmm...

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"

 

 (The Seer, p. 255  Orson Pratt )     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Pratt

[Elsie]

We’ll be standing in the holy Savior’s presence,

While MORMONs will be standing in the presence of Joseph Smith

[daniel1212]

Matt 25: 32-46 destroys every conclusion you've come up with of when and how salvation is received. Jesus granting salvation at the judgment after His commandments were followed. Plain as day. The words are explicit.

So the Lord said that they obtained salvation - becoming children of God and having their names written in the book of life, and made to sit together with Christ in the heavens - because of their works, versus being made accepted in the Beloved on His account, appropriated by faith, or that they realized final salvation because their works testified to them having real faith, which faith=works God rewards, though man owes all to Him, while what man deserve is damnation?

But the God who rewards faith is one who always was God, not a product of eternal progression, with multiple wives, and an elitist carnal prophet who is in Hell.

[Elsie]

So your dad tried to kill a Pentecostal tent preacher for preaching at him...

Reading seems to be a week point with you.

NOWHERE was KILL or PENTACOSTAL mentioned.

Why did you make it up?

[Elsie]

Prepare to meet the tar baby and the numerous ‘look over there’ typical Mormon responses,

I predict the opposite:

Silence...

[StormPrepper]

Why are you dodging this??

[MHGinTN says this:]If you had even a rudimentary understanding of The Grace of God in Christ you would have a clue as to why I will not be at that judgment.

[Long time respect christian leader Charles Stanley says this:] How will Believers Be Judged, by Charles Stanley[quote] "Scripture reveals that Jesus Christ will judge every person who has ever lived (Acts 10:42)... Believers will also stand before Jesus, at which time they’ll finally come to full comprehension of His extravagant grace.

Why aren't you calling Charles Stanley's ministry a cult???

Why aren't you calling Charles Stanley a heretic????

Or has Dr. Stanley taught you something and you're just too proud to admit it???

He's teaching something that's the complete opposite of what you're arguing...So which one of you is right and which of you is teaching heresy???!!!

Dr. Charles Stanley agrees with me, so I want to hear you proclaim to the world that he's going to hell.

[StormPrepper]

sounds like you should have listened to your grandfather..

He was a violent evil man that molested his daughters and a deacon in our Baptist church. I'm sure that earns him five gold stars in your book.

we were the Pentecostals..I said we were CHRISTIANS...

I grew up in that part of the country sweet pea. Among the Southern Baptist, the Pentecostals were considered crazy as bed bugs. We stayed away from them. Probably a good thing too, cause one of them might have gone nuts, grabbed me up and thrown me down a flight of stairs.

and my father was protecting his family from the ISIS form of religion much like the Mormons try to force on Christians..

the difference being I was proud of my father and appreciated what he did for me about the enemies of God at our door...

That's the exact rational of the Jihad movement. They bring violence to whomever they think is an enemy to God. So it's ironic that you bring up ISIS.

If a Muslim came to your door begging for food, what would you do to him?

[StormPrepper]

that they realized final salvation because their works testified to them having real faith, which faith=works God rewards, though man owes all to Him, while what man deserve is damnation?

That's the eternal law. Pretty good description.

I'm curious Daniel, do you also believe Abraham was a carnal prophet who is in Hell?

[Tennessee Nana]

Busted kid...

you were the one who brought up ISIS back in your #61..

I never mentioned ISIS but I was referring to your prior comment...

Now why did you bring up ISIS ???

[MHGinTN]

The tar baby ploy has arisen ...