The Gospel Part 5: Reconciling Faith And Works

Unsealed.org ^ | 5/19/16 | Gary

[amessenger4god]

Faith vs. works.  Christians have debated this topic for two thousand years and still do.  At the heart of the debate you have two (seemingly) opposing sides:

Team Faith says works are not required for salvation.  Salvation is received by grace through faith alone (John 6:28-29, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:21).  They believe that making works a requirement for salvation ignores the very message of the Gospel that Jesus died for our sins and rose again (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), which the Apostle Paul calls "of first importance."  This is Christianity 101.  If Jesus died for your sins as a substitutionary sacrifice how can sin or lack of works now separate the Believer from God since our sins were the very reason He died?  Isn't the point of the Cross that under the law works were a requirement for salvation and because we couldn't keep the law perfectly (James 2:10) Jesus did it for us?

Team Works doesn't deny that faith is necessary for salvation, but adds performing good works and/or avoiding sin enough as necessary components of salvation.  The works-righteousness side relies heavily on James 2:14-24 and Philippians 2:12, which both prima facie seem to indicate the opposite of such often referenced sola fide verses as Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:5.  This is the position taken by Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologians, as well as some Protestants such as N.T. Wright.

While there are essentially two sides to the debate, there are actually three ways to explain the relationship between faith and works, because Team Faith can be further split into two categories: first, those who think that faith and salvation have no relationship to works and thus grace is a license to sin (these are called antinomians: anti = against and nomian = law, so "against law").  Second, those who believe we are saved by faith alone, but the type of faith that saves is a faith that consequentially results in obedience to God and thus good works.  The second view differentiates between a professed faith and a penitent faith.  To summarize the three views:

1. Faith + works = salvation.  This is Team Works and is the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church per the sixth session of the Council of Trent (1547).  Eastern Orthodox and some Protestant churches also subscribe to this view.  It uses James 2:14-24 as the chief proof text.

2. Faith = salvation - works.  This is one of the two camps in Team Faith.  Unfortunately for this team, it is condemned at least twice in the Bible (Romans 6:1-2, Jude 1:4), and universally by the early Church.  The Bible repeatedly describes the Believer's life as characterized by love and good deeds - avoidance of sin and works stemming from faith.  For this reason antinomianism is not compatible with God's Word.  There are virtually no denominations or churches that officially subscribe to this view, although there are a large and growing number of churches and professing Christians who in practice are antinomians because they justify things that the Bible clearly defines as sin (e.g. homosexuality, adultery, abortion, obscenity, etc).

3. Faith = salvation + works.  This is the position held by a large majority of Protestant groups including Evangelicals, Anglicans, Pentecostals, and Lutherans.  It is also the official position of most Protestant denominations even if many Protestants themselves may reject the view in favor of either view #1 or view #2.  In my understanding this is also the view espoused in the Bible and in the early Church, which over centuries was diluted until Luther and Melanchthon attempted to restore the doctrine to the Church.  Galatians 2:11-3:26, Romans 3:21-5:2, and Ephesians 2:8-9 are proof texts.

For argument's sake let's all agree that view #2 is not biblical and is in fact heresy (as evidenced by many of the same scriptures that view #1 emphasizes).  We are left with #1 and #3.  Here are the reasons why I believe #3 is the biblical view:

1. It is the only view that can reconcile all scriptures.  View #1 can only sustain itself by ignoring and de-emphasizing literally dozens and dozens of scriptures that indicate salvation is wrought by faith in or belief in Jesus.  Some of the passages ignored include long discourses on faith apart from works such as the aforementioned Galatians 2:11-3:26 and Romans 3:21-5:2.  View #3 can actually reconcile James 2:14-24 prima facie, whereas view #1 cannot reconcile the Galatians, Romans, and Ephesians passages prima facie.  View #3 can also reconcile Philippians 2:12, because the Greek κατεργάζεσθε means "work out" (your salvation), not "work for" (your salvation).

2. It is the only view that preserves the simple Gospel message.  In 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 the Gospel is defined simply as Jesus dying for our sins, being buried, and rising again.  Arguing that not sinning or avoiding sin enough is how one obtains eternal life makes the Gospel pointless since that is the very reason Christ died (Galatians 2:21).  View #1 proponents attempt in a variety of ways to explain how we are saved by God's grace yet works are also necessary, but as the Apostle Paul explains, any mixture of grace and works defeats the very meaning of grace in the first place (Romans 11:6).  Paul appears to demonstrate the absurd dichotomy between faith and works in Galatians 3:1-6.  You can't have it both ways.  There is no compromise.  You can't simultaneously maintain that Jesus paid the price for your sins and yet you still have to pay.

3. It is the only view that correctly understands and defines grace.  The Bible is crystal clear that we are saved by God's grace which came through Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection.  Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this.  Yet, because of the absurdity of saying we are saved by grace and works, some theologians have changed the basic, general understanding of what the word grace means.  In a dictionary or in common conversation grace simply means "unmerited favor" or "undeserved kindness."  Yet to the works-righteousness theologian they tag "sanctifying" onto "grace" to define it as something else entirely: fuel in your spiritual tank to keep you going.

4. Sola fide has more supporting scriptures.  I don't offer this as proof because every verse must be accounted for, but for argument's sake, even if every verse that indicated works were necessary and every verse that indicated faith was necessary could not be reconciled, sola fide would still have more supporting verses.

There are 24 verses that seem to indicate the necessity of works:

James 2:14
James 2:20
James 2:24
James 2:26
Revelation 2:23
Revelation 3:2
Matthew 3:10 (good fruit necessary)
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 13:41 (all who do evil)
Luke 3:9 (good fruit necessary)
Philippians 2:12
Hebrews 10:26 (any sin after conversion; see Hebrews 10:39)
Revelation 20:12 (judged according to deeds)
Revelation 20:13 (judged according to deeds)
1 John 2:4
1 John 2:5
1 John 3:6 (no one who continues to sin)
1 John 3:7
1 John 3:8
1 John 3:9 (no one who continues to sin)
1 John 3:15
1 John 4:20
1 John 5:18 (no one who continues to sin)
3 John 1:11

Yet there are 88 verses that indicate the exclusive necessity of grace, faith, or belief (x represents where condemnation is actually tied to unbelief rather than bad deeds):

John 6:29
Romans 3:20
Romans 3:28
Romans 4:2
Romans 4:6
Romans 9:32 X
Romans 11:6
Galatians 2:16 X
Galatians 3:2
Galatians 3:5
Galatians 3:10 X
Ephesians 2:9
Matthew 9:2
Mark 2:5
Luke 5:20
Luke 7:50
Acts 15:9
Acts 20:21
Acts 26:18
Romans 1:17
Romans 3:22
Romans 3:25
Romans 3:26
Romans 3:27
Romans 3:30
Romans 4:5
Romans 4:9
Romans 4:11
Romans 4:13
Romans 4:14
Romans 4:16
Romans 5:1
Romans 5:2
Romans 9:30
Romans 10:10
Romans 11:20
Galatians 3:8
Galatians 2:21
Galatians 3:11 X
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:22
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 3:26
Galatians 5:6
Ephesians 2:8
Ephesians 3:12
Ephesians 3:17
Philippians 3:9
2 Timothy 3:15
Hebrews 10:39 X
1 Peter 1:9
Luke 8:12 X
John 1:12
John 3:15
John 3:16
John 3:18 X
John 3:36 X
John 5:24
John 6:29
John 6:40
John 6:47
John 8:24 X
John 11:25
John 11:26
John 20:31
Acts 10:43
Acts 11:17
Acts 13:39 X
Acts 15:11
Acts 16:31
Romans 1:16
Romans 4:3
Romans 4:24
Romans 9:33
Romans 10:4
Romans 10:9
Romans 10:11
1 Corinthians 1:21
1 Corinthians 15:2 X
Ephesians 1:13
2 Thessalonians 2:12 X
2 Thessalonians 2:13
1 Timothy 1:16
Hebrews 4:3 X
James 2:23
1 John 5:1
1 John 5:5
1 John 5:13
Hebrews 3:19 X

And since there are 88 verses that indicate grace, faith, or belief are exclusively necessary for salvation, and 0 verses indicating the necessity of works apart from faith, that tells me the biblical equation cannot be faith + works = salvation.

Take a look at this very quick video explanation of how faith and works relate.

[amessenger4god]

"How do you reconcile Rev. 20:12-13 then??? Just pretend they don't exist???"

I didn't pretend it didn't exist, I listed both v. 12 and v. 13 in my list of works verses. Did you see? Whether you subscribe to dispensationalism or not (I happen to), Revelation 20:6, just a few verses earlier, explicitly explains that those in the "first resurrection" (i.e. those who were saved through faith in Christ) do not take part in the judgment mentioned in v. 12-13. Simple.

"Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

I didn't include the verses about enduring to the end for one very simple reason: they don't specify if one endures in faith until the end or endures in works until the end.

But these actually happen to reconcile with view #3 and NOT view #1 because of 1 Corinthians 15:2, which explains clearly what enduring to the end means: holding fast to the Gospel, not performing works

"Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

I don't understand the issue. I agree with Paul here. This is the universal condition apart from Christ. This is what Paul explains in the first two chapters, but then in chapter 3 introduces "a righteousness apart from the law" (v. 21), which is the central theme of the entire book.

The rich young man is case in point. He's your typical view #1 proponent thinking that he's achieved what it takes for salvation by keeping the 10 Commandments. God's checklist guy. Jesus reveals to him that if he wants to earn his way it is going to take nothing short than perfection (see James 2:10).

[Elsie]

Once; Jesus was asked a direct question.

He then gave a direct answer...

 

 

John 6:28-29

 

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

[Iscool]

I didn't pretend it didn't exist, I listed both v. 12 and v. 13 in my list of works verses. Did you see? Whether you subscribe to dispensationalism or not (I happen to), Revelation 20:6, just a few verses earlier, explicitly explains that those in the "first resurrection" (i.e. those who were saved through faith in Christ) do not take part in the judgment mentioned in v. 12-13. Simple.

I agree with that but it's not so simple for many, apparently...Because there's a group of people who WILL be judged on their works and the bible points that out...

I didn't include the verses about enduring to the end for one very simple reason: they don't specify if one endures in faith until the end or endures in works until the end.

I think it's pretty clear that the (other, John 10:16) sheep and goats referred to in the verse are required to do good deeds/works; take good care of Jesus' people til the end (feed Jesus' brethren, visit the people in prison, etc.) ...

To me the works requirement is settled...And these verses are where people take up their sword to defend their faith/works theory while ignoring the rest of the scriptures...

The key to the question is for how long does one endure...To the end of what???

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

They must endure to the end; not of a person's life but endure for a period of time in history...To the end of that period of time...

My point is that people on both sides of the battle; faith only and faith and works, have sufficient scriptures to provide for both scenarios...One must rightly divide the word of truth to sort them out...

One thing that I and a FEW others subscribe to is that the book of James chronically belongs between John and Acts...Where the Gospels teach a faith/works set up the scriptures transition to a faith only setup going thru the book of Acts...

It was intended that the Jews of the Gospels would accept their Messiah and the physical kindgom would have appeared on earth and the book of James/Hebrews are instruction for that period of Tribulation prior to that kingdom...

But since the Gentile church entered the scene, God in his infinite wisdom saw fit to put the book of James at the end of the church epistles, ushering in the Tribulation...

So to me for one side or the other to try to discredit the faith only doctrine or the faith plus works doctrine is completely incorrect...They are both true but must be put in their proper place...

[Chaguito]

Exactly. The object of faith became Christ, not a set of rules. However, that faith, in the Hebrew mind, was a meaningless concept apart from “works”, that is, obedience. To a Hebrew, right response (obedience) trumps right understanding (systematic theology, even biblical systematic theology).

Justification would be a meaningless concept without the works that go along with the new status. The argument about which comes “first”, or which was more “essential”, would be foreign concepts to Jesus or the writers of the New Testament.

I like theology and counting verses and stuff like that. But I realize that it is strictly an organizing tool, and not the truth in itself.

[Chaguito]

I should have added you to #24.

I agree with you. My point is that in the NT writers’ minds, there is no “works camp” and “faith camp,” in the question of the lordship of Jesus Christ.

[MHGinTN]

Thank you. Jesus has and had the mind of God. Jesus is God with us.

[StormPrepper]

1. You start with faith in Jesus Christ
2. If you have faith in Jesus Christ, you will follow His commandments.
3. His commandments include doing His works.
4. As you do His works your faith grows.
5. Enduring to the end means, the end of your life.
6. Jesus will judge you based on your works, which is indicator of your faith.
7. Works do not save you. Jesus Christ saves you. But in order for Him to grant salvation you have to prove where your faith lies.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by
works was faith made perfect?

8. Matt 25:32-46 is direct and explicit. How can anyone deny this? Ask yourself this, based on Matt 25, are the righteous separated from the wicked based on what they believed or what they did? Or... didn’t do?

9. I can’t recall any place in scripture where any prophet or the Lord ever says He will judge you for your belief. They all only say you will be judged by your works.

Works = faith = belief.

The problem is, you don’t know what you’re supposed to do. So you kind of throw your hands up. You have no prophets to teach you and God hasn’t spoken directly to any of your churches in 2000 years.

You could seek out the two prophets John saw in vision in Rev 11. They could teach you I guess.

Just remember this warning:

Matt 7
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus said multiple times that in reality, among the believers and religionist, only a few would actually be saved. Probably because the vast majority went around claiming they didn’t have to do anything for their salvation...

[MHGinTN]

"5. Enduring to the end means, the end of your life."

You are in error, having lifted a piece of a passage not directed to this Church Age. You are not rightly dividing the Word of God, you are mangling it to fit a preconceived assertion by the religion of Mormonism.

The clear context of the partial quote is directed to Israel and the ones hidden from the persecution of antichrist and his legions during the last half of the Tribulation.

[daniel1212]

eam Faith can be further split into two categories: first, those who think that faith and salvation have no relationship to works and thus grace is a license to sin (these are called antinomians: anti = against and nomian = law, so "against law"). Second, those who believe we are saved by faith alone, but the type of faith that saves is a faith that consequentially results in obedience to God and thus good works. The second view differentiates between a professed faith and a penitent faith.

How do you reconcile Rev. 20:12-13 then??? Just pretend they don't exist???

Rev. 20:12-13 simply refers to the lost, having rejected the Lord Jesus, being sentenced in accordance with their sins, and the greater the grace they rejected, the greater their degree of punishment. Believers will have already gone to be with the Lord in the first resurrection - the "resurrection of life:” Jn. 5:29a; Rev. 20:6,7,14, and to fight with Him in the battle of Armageddon, (Jude 1:14-15) and receive rewards at the judgment seat of Christ (which takes place at His return: 1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4), and will judge the world and angels at the final judgment. (1Co. 6:2,3; cf. Mal. 3:18; Mt 16:27; 19:28; Mt 24:30,31; 25:31; Lk. 22:20; 2Th 1:7,8; Re 1:7; 5:10; 19:6-20; 20:4)

But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. (Luke 10:12-13)

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Indeed, as such is an essential characteristic of true faith:

Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. (Hebrews 10:35-36)

But which does not mean that one is saved "by works of righteousness which we have done," (Titus 3:5) but that as the poster said, "the type of faith that saves is a faith that consequentially results in obedience to God and thus good works." Thus the classic Prot. doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints," though Scripture does warn against falling from grace, in departing from the living God. (Heb. 3:12; Gal. 5:1-4)

What about that one??? You don't get saved until you endure to the end...

That refers to final salvation, for one is saved the moment they are converted, being "washed...sanctified...justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God," (1 Corinthians 6:11) being made "accepted in the Beloved" and "made to sit together in heavenly places", (Eph. 1:6; 2;6) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

Yet we are also being saved in the sense of progressive sanctification, from our present condition to conformity with Christ, seeking to become as much as we can be to our resurrected state.

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Philippians 3:11-15)

Then there is the final full realization of salvation, not simply deliverance from the penalty of sin, and receiving eternal life with Christ, but seeing and being with the Lord Jesus, and having a resurrected body like His, and rewards for service, etc.

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. (Romans 13:11)

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4)

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Faith is no where mentioned regarding the sheep and goats...The sheep get the kingdom due to good works...

Rather, works are nowhere said to be the cause of their justification, which Paul makes clear is by faith, but it is because their faith was manifested by works that they were judged fit to be rewarded under grace. Faith is what appropriates justification, not any system of works-merit,

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:3-5)

"So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." "...if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." (Galatians 3:9-10,21) Yet works justify one as having saving faith, like as a fulfilled prophecy justifies one as being a prophet. Believers are judged by works as this is what evidences faith, which God rewards:

Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. (Hebrews 10:35) .

Like as forgiveness and healing could be used synonymously ("Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?" - Mark 2:9), as the former effected the latter, so faith and works can sometimes be used thusly, but the effect is not the cause. Therefore Scripture both teaches that one obtains justification by believing, but also promises salvation to those who obey the Lord.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:8-13)

And how about the rich guy who 'couldn't get in' because he wouldn't sell everything he had and give it away??? Thus to be consistent with this, then everyone must divest themselves of all wealth to be saved, but Paul tells the rich to simply be willing to distribute, (1Tim. 6:17-19) as disciples must surrender all in heart to Christ. (Lk. 14:33) Which type of obedience is a mark of true faith, but which is not its actual cause.

The common error is supposing that the effect of justification is its cause, that souls actually merit eternal life by their works, yet

man could not and would not believe on the Lord Jesus or follow Him unless God gave him life, and breath, and all good things he has, (Acts 17:25) and convicted him, (Jn. 16:8) drew him, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32) opened his heart, (Acts 16:14) and granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and gave faith, (Eph. 2:8,9) and then worked in him both to will and to do of His good pleasure the works He commands them to do. (Phil. 2:13; Eph. 2:10)

Thus man owes to God all things, and while he is guilty and rightly damned for resisting God contrary to the level of grace given him, (Prov. 1:20-31; Lk. 10:13; 12:48; Rv. 20:11-15) man can not claim he actually deserves anything, and God does not owe him anything but damnation, except that under grace — which denotes unmerited favor — God has chosen to reward faith, (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of its effects.

Which means that God justifies man without the merit of any works, which is what Romans 4:1-7ff teaches, with “works of the law” including all systems of justification by merit of works, “for, if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21)

Thus the penitent publican and the contrite criminal, both of whom abased themselves as damned and destitute sinner and cast all their faith upon the mercy of God (which ultimately is Christ), were justified, and as such could go directly to be with the Lord at death, even before they did any manifest works of faith. But works justify one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded under grace for such, (Mt. 25:30-40; Rv. 3:4) though only because God has decided to reward man for what God Himself is actually to be credited for.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Which is as said, because the doers of the law shall be justified as being believers in the light of their obedience, as faith effects works, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4)

[Zuriel]

**Salvation is received by grace through faith alone (John 6:28-29, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:21).**

Well, aside from the fact that the epistles were written to people that were already born again (that’s the context), we live in physical bodies. One cannot have faith without moving a muscle.

An example: the man with the palsy

“.....they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus. And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins be forgiven thee.” Luke 5:19,20

another example:

After hearing the centurion’s testimony from messengers he had sent to Jesus: “When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no not in Israel.” Luke 7:9

another example:

After the sinner woman wept over, wiped, and annointed the feet of Jesus, “..he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven........And he said unto the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee, go in peace.” Luke 7:48,50

to be continued......

[Iscool]

5. Enduring to the end means, the end of your life.

Not according to the context in Matthew...What is it a person is supposed to endure??? Persecution...And for how long??? Till a certain event takes place...NOT the end of your life...It's right there in the context...

6. Jesus will judge you based on your works, which is indicator of your faith.

That is not at all what the apostle Paul teaches us...He teaches us that 'our works' get judged...Not us...And then the bad works are burned up..Expunged from our record so we can go to heaven with a clean slate...

7. Works do not save you. Jesus Christ saves you. But in order for Him to grant salvation you have to prove where your faith lies.

Jesus doesn't judge our works...He judges our heart...We don't have to prove anything...

Jesus said multiple times that in reality, among the believers and religionist, only a few would actually be saved. Probably because the vast majority went around claiming they didn’t have to do anything for their salvation...

The truth is exactly the opposite...It is the people who think Jesus didn't do enough to save us that are in danger...There is absolutely nothing we can contribute to our salvation...To take even the slightest credit away from Jesus and attribute it to yourself only angers Jesus...

8. Matt 25:32-46 is direct and explicit. How can anyone deny this? Ask yourself this, based on Matt 25, are the righteous separated from the wicked based on what they believed or what they did? Or... didn’t do?

I, a dispensationalist agree with you...Clearly teaches a works salvation...But not for Christians...There's not a Christian in that bunch anywhere...

[Iscool]

Rev. 20:12-13 simply refers to the lost, having rejected the Lord Jesus, being sentenced in accordance with their sins, and the greater the grace they rejected, the greater their degree of punishment. Believers will have already gone to be with the Lord in the first resurrection - the "resurrection of life:” Jn. 5:29a; Rev. 20:6,7,14, and to fight with Him in the battle of Armageddon

I agree with that...I also believe there will be people in that group from the church age who thought their works would get them to heaven...I was simply pointing out that the scripture does exist where works are essential and those groups who apply that concept to the church age use those verses in Revelation to show that judgment is connected with works...

Rather, works are nowhere said to be the cause of their justification,

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:

At that time if one was not under the law but sinned will perish...No grace...

and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Those under the law couldn't miss a single one

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Justification by works...Until,

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Righteousness came from following the law...But now,

which Paul makes clear is by faith, but it is because their faith was manifested by works that they were judged fit to be rewarded under grace.

But faith is a free gift...Not a reward for those who followed the law...Grace has been offered to All men...

Tit_2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

[MHGinTN]

!

[daniel1212]

That is not at all what the apostle Paul teaches us...He teaches us that 'our works' get judged...Not us..

A distinction without a difference, as in judging what manner of workmanship one built the church with, then the Lord is judging the worker as to whether he/she is fit to be rewarded or suffer loss of rewards, though i do not think it is an either/or situation.

Jesus doesn't judge our works...He judges our heart...We don't have to prove anything...

Which contradicts your previous statement, but the Lord certainly does judge our heart - by our works, as is clearly seen, such as in His critique of the 7 churches of Asia.

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (Revelation 2:2)

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted [well-approved] of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. (2 Corinthians 5:8-11)

And then the bad works are burned up..Expunged from our record so we can go to heaven with a clean slate...

There is nothing here in 1Co. 3:8ff about works being expunged from our record so we can go to heaven with a clean slate, as the judgment is in order to reward believers, not to purify them so they can enter Heaven (which is akin to Roman Catholicism), and they are already with the Lord at His return. Combustible building material will be burned up, resulting in loss of rewards and the grievous disapproval of the Lord, but one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of them.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

[daniel1212]

8. Matt 25:32-46 is direct and explicit. How can anyone deny this? Ask yourself this, based on Matt 25, are the righteous separated from the wicked based on what they believed or what they did? Or... didn’t do?

They were they believed separated from the wicked based on what thy believed, as evidenced by their works. "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18) Everything that we do is a result of what we truly believe - at least at the moment. While works are the criteria for determination of whether what one professes is the truth, it is not the works or our practical sanctification that make us good enough to be with God in Heaven, which is the error of Rome (thus Purgatory).

[Elsie]

Just remember this warning:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

[Elsie]

Just remember this warning:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

[Elsie]

You could seek out the two prophets John saw in vision in Rev 11. They could teach you I guess.

Let's see what SLC has to say about this...

 

Doctrine and Covenants 77:15 reveals more about the two witnesses.

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-study-guide/the-revelation-of-saint-john-the-divine/revelation-11-two-special-witnesses?lang=eng

[Elsie]

2 Peter 1:1-4    New King James Version (NKJV)

 

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

² Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, ³ as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, ⁴ by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

---

Everything; eh?

I guess the BoM is not needed (according to GOD's word...)

I guess the D&C's are not needed (according to GOD's word...)

I guess the Pearl of Great Price is not needed (according to GOD's word...)

[daniel1212]

By the grace of God i gave two female Mormon missionaries reproof of their religion for about 10 minutes last week, resulting in “we have to go,” but were warned of where they were going.