Posted on 04/27/2016 8:41:02 AM PDT by Salvation
So, are you admitting the author of the OP was wrong to presume the Catholic church mirrors the early church in the Acts of the Apostles? Brilliant! We agree!
Well, here’s a question..why do y’all keep throwing them out there, then? Sal is well aware after all these years that her provocative threads will INVITE controversy and disagreement. Yet she still posts the same stuff. Don’t complain about those who dispute the elitist conclusions, target the ones who start the ball rolling in the first place! That “horse” has company.
Dude, you started one of your own a week or so ago. What in the world are you fussing about?
Indeed, as does your defense of them, with opposition being because as a former weekly and serving RC, i am to go where the Truth leads, and thus my comment on Catholic Answers, who cannot tolerate my or other sound reproof. Bring one of their apologist to debate here and lets see his sophistry exposed by God's grace. That of Staples already has been.
Specifically, we’ll examine the words of Christ to Peter and the apostles: “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” As CCC 553 says, Christ here communicated not only authority “to pronounce doctrinal judgments, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church,” but also “the authority to absolve sins” to the apostles.
These words are unsettling, even disturbing, to many. And understandably so. How could God give such authority to men? And yet he does. Jesus Christ, who alone has the power to open and shut heaven to men, clearly communicated this authority to the apostles and their successors. This is what the forgiveness of sins is all about: to reconcile men and women with their heavenly Father. CCC 1445 puts it succinctly: The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.
The problem - besides avoiding the fact that Holy Spirit nowhere describes pastors as a distinct sacerdotal class of believers distinctively titled NT "priests" - as easily manifest in the light of Scripture is that you have a Biblical statement followed by RC conclusions - and which must include what is not stated here - which are not what Scripture reveals. For the meaning of the binding and loosing statements must be interpreted in the light of the rest of Scripture, which fails to support the doctrine of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility of office, nor the idea that the people regularly came to NT priests to confess their sins - neither of WHICH ARE ANYWHERE SEEN!
That God gave binding and loosing authority to men is not unsettling, except perhaps to anarchists, for this is nothing new. Under the law fathers or husbands could bind their daughters or wives to their vows or loose them (which means a vow of Mary to perpetual virginity - which she would hardly have made before marriage - would require this), and if the respective man any ways made them void after that he hath heard them, then he would bear her iniquity. (Num. 30) But this binding/loosing authority did not require or infer ensured infallibility.
In addition, the judgements of the OT magisterium were binding or loosing, with dissent from which being a capital crime: If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the Lord thy God shall choose; (Deuteronomy 17:8) "And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously." (Deuteronomy 17:13) But this binding/loosing authority did not require or infer ensured infallibility.
And in the NT,this what corresponds to Mt. 18;15-18, "if thy brother shall trespass against thee..if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:15) It does not even mention settling doctrinal differences, though in principle that flows from it, while regarding personal conflicts Paul instructs the church to chose wise men from among them as judges in such matters, (1Co. 6:5) which RC laity cannot. But this binding/loosing authority did not require or infer ensured infallibility.
Nor did the verity of the judgement of the ecumenical council Jerusalem rest upon the premise of ensured magisterial infallibility (unlike that of RC doctrine: "...the mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true," Karl Keating, founder of Catholic Answers; Catholicism and Fundamentalism San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988, p. 275), but instead it rested upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, and with James providing the Scriptural conclusive judgment, confirmatory of Peter and Paul.
Moreover, it is revealed that healing can be synonymous with forgiveness, so that the one forgiven is healed, referring to removing God's hands of chastisement for sins, perhaps those of ignorance, in response to the intercession of others, and which do not need to be even be confessed to obtain forgiveness, as in the case of the man sick of the palsy. "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?" (Mark 2:9)
And which corresponds to James 5, in which a sick believer is to call for the NT presbuteros - not priests - and "let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5:15)
Thus the closest thing to what Catholicism reads into Scripture is not even speaking of believers confessing their sins, much less regularly. And in further contrast to Catholicism, what James describes here is assured healing, while for Caths this text is used to justify her "Last Rite" sacrament, which is typically a precursor of death. >Meanwhile, in even further contrast to Catholicism, the ONLY place that exhorts confession of sins is to other believers in general:
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:16-20)
This cannot be restricted to the presbuteros, and reveals that which judicial binding or loosing is restricted to the earthly government, spiritually this power is provided for all who are of Elijah fervent holy faith. And which Mt. 18 likewise applies to:
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:18-20)
"Two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them," applies to all believers, but just as "any thing that they shall ask it shall be done for them" is contingent on being in accordance with the word of God and His will, so likewise "whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.." Autocracy is reserved to God, not man, Rome or cults.
Thus while Catholics presume to quote Mt. 18; Jn. 20 and Ja. 5 as if these refer to some new power of ensured magisterial infallibility, and of souls regularly coming to a sacerdotal priests to confess sins, this is simply not what Scripture teaches, and does not support referring to Cath clergy with the title that the Holy Spirit nowhere uses for NT pastors.
Can you explain why the Holy Spirit did not include the word “Trinity” in the Old or New Testament?
Sure, as it is a theological term referring to the nature of God, which men are free to use if what it describes is Scripturally manifest, versus presuming to use a term the Holy Spirit abundantly distinctively uses for clergy under one government but never distinctively uses for NT clergy, and which are never shown or described as having the unique sacerdotal function of the former clergy. Thus your comparison is invalid, as are your other arguments.
May the Holy Spirit help you understand His Truth.
Indeed, it is error begetting error, as if the Holy Spirit of Christ had no good reason for distinctively using the word for priests/high priest over 280 times (mainly as the latter), but never using it for NT pastors but instead using presbuteros over 60 times for NT pastors.
Placemaker
So what language is it, what part of speech is it, what does it mean, where does it come from, when did it appear, and why do you use it to prove something that doesn't exist in the Holy Scriptures regarding Mary, or the Disciples' estimate of her influence on the beginning prototype church at Jerusalem, or in churches planted elsewhere?
It is called Mormon speak. When talking to them, EVERY term used, must be thoroughly defined, because words and phrases that you and I use all the time, tend to conjure up totally different concepts in their minds.
Not exclusive. Mt. 16:19 does not say "unto thee and thee alone." Speaking to all disciples a bit later, recorded in Mt. 18:18, Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." You is plural in the Greek and in the English.
Bringing that forward, anyone now knowing the essence of The Faith can use It--the Gospel, the keys--to point to the Open Door to the Kingdom of Heaven, the visible church.
Peter used them once, on Pentecost, for the Jews; and once later, for the Gentiles.
However, Jesus' Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is not of this world (Jn. 18:36), and nobody but Jesus has the key to that Kingdom. He is the Way, The Tuth, the Life, and the Door to that Kingdom. Peter has no control over who enters the Kingdom of God.
Elsie: Translation: Translators are stupid.
Sometimes, yes. NWT. Ask Julius R. Mantey (click here), whom the Watchtower Tract Society misquotes. But it's not the who give the sense of the translation, it's the interpreters who try to tell you what was on the mind of the writers. Or on the mind of the subjects (i. e. Caiaphas) of whom they are writing. Or on the mind of God (click here), for those who are really daring and want to go beyond the Holy Spirit's words (NIV, for instance).
forgot you on Post #230, sorry
Here is an alphabetical list of some of the more important terms and their meanings to a Mormon:
AARONIC PRIESTHOOD: This is called the lesser priesthood, and is usually held by young men starting at the age of 12 to the age of about 18. It is also held for a short time by men who have just become members.
AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.
APOSTLES: The Mormon Church claims to have the same organization as the primitive church that Jesus set up. They also have twelve apostles and sometimes use this as a proof of their divine appointment as the one true church. But they actually have fifteen or more most of the time. The general practice has been for a new president, who is also an apostle, to appoint counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve; then the openings left by the president and his counselors are filled, resulting in a total of fifteen.
CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven.
ELOHIM: The name of God the Father.
EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.
ETERNAL PROGRESSION: The teaching that each of us has the potential to become a God just like God the Father did. He was once a man capable of physical death, was resurrected and progressed to become a God. We can take a similar path and get all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge the Father and Jesus Christ has. We then will be able to procreate spirit children who will worship us as we do God the Father.
GOD: Usually means God the Father. He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. Within Mormonism, Gods, angels, people and devils all have the same nature or substance but are at different stages along the line of progression to Godhood.
GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community.
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.
HOLY GHOST: The third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit, unlike the Father and Son who have bodies of flesh and bones.
JEHOVAH: The pre-incarnate name for Jesus Christ.
JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.
MARRIAGE: The Mormon Church teaches two types of marriage. One ends at death. The other is for "time and eternity." If the couple is married in a Mormon temple by someone with authority it is believed they will stay married in the next life. This kind of marriage is needed if they are to progress, not only as husband and wife, but as God and Goddess.
MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD: The higher of two categories of ministry in the LDS Church, assigned primarily to seasoned members over the age of 18, males only.
POLYGAMY: The practice of men having more than one wife was started by Joseph Smith in the early/mid 1830's and ostensibly ended in 1890. It is not now sanctioned by the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City. Members found practicing it are excommunicated. While the practice was ended, the revelation teaching it is still in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132). Some Mormon splinter groups believe the teaching was for eternity and still practice it. These modern-day polygamists (called fundamentalists) number in the 30,000-50,000 range.
PRE-EXISTENCE: The Mormon teaching that our spirits (Mormons and non-Mormons) were procreated in a premortal life by God the Father and our Mother in Heaven, that our spirits were born and raised to maturity before coming to earth to obtain physical bodies, and that the spirit of Jesus Christ was the first one born to our Heavenly parents.
PRIESTHOOD: A category of ministry in the LDS Church open to all worthy males 12 years of age or older, empowering them to act in God's name. Non-Mormons cannot hold the priesthood, hence they have no authority. Men of African descent have only recently (by special correction of the original revelations) been allowed to hold these offices.
PROPHET: The top leader of the Mormon Church is considered not only a prophet but is also a seer and revelator. He has the title "president." He is the only one who can speak for the whole church and receive new revelation for the whole church. When the current prophet dies, the most senior (time as an apostle, not age) of the twelve apostles, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the new president. He can appoint counselors, who receive their authority from him.
SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:
The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".
SATAN: One of the spirit children of God. As a consequence of their rebellion Satan and his angels cannot have mortal bodies - hence cannot progress.
SCRIPTURES: The Mormon Church has four documents it calls canonized scriptures: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Version of the Holy Bible.
SON OF GOD: Along with Jesus Christ, all of us are viewed as the children of God, his literal spirit children. This makes us all - Mormons, non-Mormons, Jesus Christ and Satan - spirit brothers.
SPIRITS: Nonmaterial beings allegedly procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife. Jesus Christ, and even we ourselves, were supposedly born and raised to maturity as spirits before coming into bodies on this earth. The spirit of Satan was also procreated in this way. This makes Satan and Jesus Christ spirit brothers. Jesus selected a righteous path; Satan selected the opposite.
STANDARD WORKS: The four canonized scriptures (see Scripture above) used by the Mormon Church are called the Standard Works.
TEMPLE: One of about four dozen special (for LDS) buildings around the world in which sacred (to LDS) ceremonies are performed for the living and the dead; off limits to nonmembers and even to Mormons who lack a "temple recommend" from their leaders. Only about 20% of the Mormons qualify to go.
TRINITY: This word is used by Christians to summarize the Biblical teaching that within the one true God is three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. They share the same nature or substance so that there are not three Gods, but three persons in the one God. Mormons say they also believe in the Trinitarian concept of God. But really what they mean are that God the Father is a God, God the Son is another God, and God the Holy Ghost is a third God and they are "one God" because they are "one in purpose." Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).
VIRGIN BIRTH: A concept negated by the view that God, a resurrected man with flesh and bones according to Mormon teachings, literally fathered Jesus in the flesh in the same way in which earthly men father their children. Despite the documented position of previous Mormon prophets, presidents, and apostles about the nature of Christ's conception, modern LDS apologists maintain that "Christ was born of a virgin". How can they? By changing the definition of the word "virgin". The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase "virgin birth" still applies.
WORD OF WISDOM: The name for the Mormon Church's teaching requiring abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks (tea and coffee).
Guys; if I’ve got any of the above wrong; could you tell me so I can correct the list?
...Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
It does NOT say ANYTHING about all the EXTRA junk that Rome has come up with!!!
It doesn't say NOT to; so THERE!
Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(HailMary!! These Prots just do NOT get it; do they; Mom!)
There just HAS to be some reason for SLC to NOT claim IT as 'scripture'!
You forgot the Outer Darkness!
More error begetting even more error.
The Greek word for "pastor" is ποιμήν (poimēn) and is used once in the NT. The adjective presbuteros (translated 'elder') is the comparative form of πρεσβύτης presbutēs (old), The protoype Jerusalem assembly was governed by a plurality of older, more spiritually mature men, whose angel/messenger/spokesman was James (Acts 15).
Similarly, Paul constrained Titus to appoint elders (plural) in each city (singular). While the elders may have had a pastoral function, the title "Pastor" was not one used in the first churches, and is absent from the NT as being equated with episkopos as is done today, That whole concept of government of churches by an episcopacy is entirely a Romish military-style to subjugate great masses of humans despite their supposed freedom in Christ.
The error today is to use this system even of independent autonomous local assemblies to make all the church members subordinate to a single leader determining the conduct and finances of the church, and quenching the spiritual maturation so as to prevent any opposition to the "Pastor." That is not the form of the NT church.
did it again on Post #238 — forgot to add you guys
That’s some speak, that Mormon speak. It’s a lot worse than I thought. What balderdash. I wonder if anyone will try to tell you that isn’t what is really taught?
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