Posted on 03/17/2016 7:49:46 AM PDT by ebb tide
Sorry for the late response, but I do not condone such language. Care to answer my question now?
Is not condone synonymous for condemn ?
Care to answer my question now?
I have no idea what is in a book of concord; does it mention Judaism ?
I have a very good idea what Lutherans confess on this thread. It seems quite at odds with what the Lutherans of the Missouri Synod teach about Judaism on this web page. Thus I ask again if the Lutherans here are condemning post 19 by a denominational colleague who wrote "Luther agitated against the demonic cult known as Judaism."
We in The Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod condemn any and all discrimination against others on account of race or religion or any coercion on that account and pledge ourselves to work and witness against such sins.
You might want to be careful about opening this can of worms. There is a lot pope quotes and actions against Jews as well:
POPE CLEMENT VIII: "All the world suffers from the usury of the Jews, their monopolies and deceit. They have brought many unfortunate people into a state of poverty, especially the farmers, working class people and the very poor. Then as now Jews have to be reminded intermittently anew that they were enjoying rights in any country since they left Palestine and the Arabian desert, and subsequently their ethical and moral doctrines as well as their deeds rightly deserve to be exposed to criticism in whatever country they happen to live."
SYLVESTER I. Condemned Jewish anti-Christian activity.
GREGORY VIII. Forbade Jews to have power over Christians, in a letter to Alfonso VI of Castile.
GREGORY IX. Condemned the TALMUD as containing "every kind of vileness and blasphemy against Christian doctrine."
BENEDICT XIII. His Bull on the Jewish issue (1450) declared: "The heresies, vanities and errors of the TALMUD prevent their knowing the truth."
JULIUS III. Contra Hebreos retinentes libros (1554) ordered the TALMUD burned "everywhere" and established a strict censorship over Jewish genocidal writings - an order that has never been rescinded and which presumably is still binding upon Catholics.
PAUL IV. Cum nimis absurdim (1555) promulgated immediately after his coronation, was a powerful condemnation of Jewish usury. It embodies a model legal code to curb Jewish power that was recommended to all communities.
PIUS V. Hebraeorum gens (1569) expelled all Jews from the Papal States.
GREGORY XIII. Declared that Jews: "continue to plot horrible crimes" against Christians "with daily increasing audacity."
BENEDICT XIV. Quo Primum 1751) denounced Jewish control of commerce and "systematical despoliation" of the Christian through usury.
PIUS VII. Known generally as an 'anti-Semite' by Jewish writers.
“I have a very good idea what Lutherans confess on this thread.”
So one sentence in one post is good enough for that? Hmmm...
“Thus I ask again if the Lutherans here are condemning post 19 by a denominational colleague who wrote ‘Luther agitated against the demonic cult known as Judaism’.”
Is it burden to condemn everything someone else says? I do not believe Judaism is a demonic cult, and I feel it was inappropriate to do so. But reviewing the posts by the poster, and without reading his mind, I also think it quite clear he was not intending to be anti-semetic.
“I have no idea what is in a book of concord; does it mention Judaism?”
Taking at face value and in good faith (though simply clicking on the link would have given all you need to know about it), the Book of Concord was written mostly during the reformation (though the ancient creeds also form a part of it) explaining the beliefs of the “Lutheran” church in comparison to the Roman Catholic Church. It is accepted completely (Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) or to some extent (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) by Lutheran churches as faithful statements of Christian doctrine.
Does it mention Judaism? Well I can do a search on that page same as you, and the Jews get a couple of brief mentions, apparently nothing significant. Which is understandable.
“It seems quite at odds with what the Lutherans of the Missouri Synod teach about Judaism on this web page.”
Okay, so then why such ado about what one poster posted on one thread somewhere on the internet?
Because you are the first, and only, (apparent) Lutheran who condemned the antisemitic post when you wrote, "I do not believe Judaism is a demonic cult, and I feel it was inappropriate to do so. "
All nations are subject to the Messianic Judgment. The can of worms defense strategy is unlikely to fare better than the when did we defense. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Little children, let no man deceive you:he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five, Protestant verses thirty one to forty six,
First John, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verse seven,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
boldness mine
I have read of Father Miliks theories and while they are certainly interesting,they are in no way conclusive. I believe they came about in the 1950's or thereabout and I'm pretty sure that they have been or are being researched for their validity.
It wasn't Luther's writings that caused the Holocaust. You're being silly. Luther's book on this fell into obscurity in the centuries leading up to Hitler, it was not the manifesto of antiSemitism. There were plenty of Germans (and popes, as my quotes show) that were thinking the same on their own on this.
All nations are subject to the Messianic Judgment. The can of worms defense strategy is unlikely to fare better than the when did we defense.
Oh so all the popes just loved the Jews and Talmudic Judaism? My quotes from them show otherwise.
Oh yeah, it's a funny story. After Peter's ossuary was found in Jerusalem and confirmed by Milik, the Vatican immediately came up with a set of bones they found in a wall and were Peter's, as they said. Well, on further study it was a collection of animal bones and the bone of a woman. So the Vatican went back and immediately found another set of bones somewhere there, that the pope's personal archaeologist confirmed was Peter's, but the archaeologist wasn't named and no one else is allowed to study them. Now that's desperate. lol
You have still not sourced your quotes.
You have still not sourced your quotes.
Well, one of the worst was Julius III. An account of his Nazi-like order to burn Jewish property is in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia pp391-392.
Should pope Julius III be declared an anti-pope for his Nazi-like order that put such suffering on the Jews?
There was a lot of Protestants in Germany, it was a desperate attempt of using Luther at his trial to get protestant sympathy to weasel out of his crimes.
You avoided my question, should Julius III be declared an anti-pope for his Nazi-like order to burn Jewish property?
should Julius III be declared an anti-pope for his Nazi-like order to burn Jewish property?
No, I don't think so; perhaps you (or I) don't understand the term anti-pope. He should be judged by King Messiah for what he did and did not do, just as I posted previously with Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five.
Anti-pope, anti-Semite, whatever. I don't care about the rules about anti-popes.
He should be judged by King Messiah for what he did and did not do, just as I posted previously with Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five.
Okay, why do you judge Luther as an anti-Semite for his nazi-like statements, and not pope Julius III for his nazi-like actions? Luther just talked, Julius actually acted.
A lot of things happen on birthdays. I'm surprised they didn't implement it on Julius' birthday. lol
Again, the Nazis hated Christians but still they needed the support of Christians and Catholics, so they modeled a lot of things from the Catholic way of doing things and tried to bring in the protestants too. Hitler kept Pius XII close until the end, to the point the Catholic ratlines helped escaping nazis. No different than Obama claiming to be Christian, Hitler used the same strategy.
Anti-Semitism was non uncommon in “Christian” Europe, including Germany, and existed independent of Luther. Google Johann Eck. He was a Catholic theologican and pretty anti-semitic himself.
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