Posted on 03/12/2016 9:36:07 AM PST by Salvation
Perpetual virginity
3/9/2016
Question: I am a lifelong and devout Catholic and have always considered Mary to be ever virgin. But recently, I read in my Bible that Joseph had no relations with Mary “before” she bore a son (Mt 1:25). Now, I wonder if our belief does not contradict the Bible.— Eugene DeClue, Festus, Missouri
Answer: The Greek word “heos,” which your citation renders “before,” is more accurately translated “until,” which can be ambiguous without a wider context of time. It is true, in English, the usual sense of “until” is that I am doing or not doing something now “until” something changes, and then I start doing or not doing it. However, this is not always the case, even in Scripture.
If I say to you, “God bless you until we meet again.” I do not mean that after we meet again God’s blessing will cease or turn to curses. In this case, “until” is merely being used to refer to an indefinite period of time which may or may not ever occur. Surely, I hope we meet again, but it is possible we will not, so go with God’s blessings, whatever the case.
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In Scripture, too, we encounter “until” being used merely to indicate an indefinite period whose conditions may or may not be met. Thus, we read, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam 6:23). Of course, this should not be taken to mean that she started having children after she died. If I say to you in English that Christ “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), I do not mean his everlasting kingdom will actually end thereafter.
While “until” often suggests a future change of state, it does not necessarily mean that the change happens — or even can happen. Context is important. It is the same in Greek, where heos, or heos hou, require context to more fully understand what is being affirmed.
The teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary does not rise or fall on one word, rather, a body of evidence from other sources such as: Mary’s question to the angel as to how a betrothed virgin would conceive; Jesus entrusting Mary to the care of a non-blood relative at this death; and also the long witness of ancient Tradition.
LOL, you must have looked at my profile page. 😊
I believe you meant to write Mark 3:31. True, the Apostles do refer to the brothers of Jesus and to the mother of Jesus. But nowhere do the Apostles refer to Mary as the mother anyone else.
It cannot be definitively proven from Scripture alone that Mary did have other children or that Mary did not have other children.
Apparently I've not made myself clear on this. Jacob (Anglicized as James), was born of Mary's womb subsequent to Jesus, therefore a son of Mary therefore a brother of Jesus. That's what I have called a womb-brother, not as a fraternal twin, as your impression seems to indicate.
Paul met Jacob THE brother of THE Lord. Not A brother in the Christian sense, or a cousin in the larger family sense.
Jacob/James was born of Mary.
Perpetual virginity is a figment of the imagination of someone whose thesis would be destroyed if Joseph and Mary followed their marriage vows and God's command to be fruitful and multiply. If Joseph was not the loving husband of Mary expecting to enjoy connubial bliss following Jesus' birth, what function did He have in God's plan? To use up plaster of Paris for future illustrations? /s
Also, get this, I'm not gonna be your pet project going forward in this thread.
The Word, if read in context, and an understanding of the Greek denies she was ever virgin.
The “she” referred to in Genesis is EVE, in the context of the Garden. Mary is ‘the seed’ of EVE, but it is Messiah Who is spoken of as the seed of Eve. The Catholic magicsteeringthem changed the meaning so that it would exalt Mary the Mother of Jesus. God spoke to EVE, many generations before Mary. In the same way that David is the seed of Abraham, Mary is the seed of EVE and ADAM.
That should be the first sign the wheels were coming off the wagon.
That certainly is a possibility.
Neat observation!
WHAT Record???
This record -
Origen (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248])
Hilary (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354])
Athanasius (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360])
Epiphanius of Salamis (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374])
Jerome (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary, 21 [A.D. 383])
Didymus (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386])
Ambrose of Milan (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388])
Pope Siricius I (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392])
Augustine (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428])
Cyril of Alexandria (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430])
That is a great profile page. There is a real good reason why, pal! And it’s not hockey skating in the Philippines! (bg)
Genesis 3:13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” ... 14 The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”
I showed them how it is was done. 😀😆
You have entered no proof, just a modern opinion, that as far as I can tell, did not originate until the progressive devolution of Protestantism in the 19th Century, the same century in which some Protestants devolved and originated Mormonism.
Your opinions do not make facts.
And I note that the immaculate conception did not become dogma until the 19th century as well, but neither observation is relevant to the current discussion.
See 337. Forgot to ping you.
However, there is historical precedent. It did not originate out of thin air, historically speaking.
Do not conflated Mormonism, which denies sola scriptura, to those who hold to sola scriptura. Serious error in logic.
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