Posted on 03/12/2016 9:36:07 AM PST by Salvation
Perpetual virginity
3/9/2016
Question: I am a lifelong and devout Catholic and have always considered Mary to be ever virgin. But recently, I read in my Bible that Joseph had no relations with Mary “before” she bore a son (Mt 1:25). Now, I wonder if our belief does not contradict the Bible.— Eugene DeClue, Festus, Missouri
Answer: The Greek word “heos,” which your citation renders “before,” is more accurately translated “until,” which can be ambiguous without a wider context of time. It is true, in English, the usual sense of “until” is that I am doing or not doing something now “until” something changes, and then I start doing or not doing it. However, this is not always the case, even in Scripture.
If I say to you, “God bless you until we meet again.” I do not mean that after we meet again God’s blessing will cease or turn to curses. In this case, “until” is merely being used to refer to an indefinite period of time which may or may not ever occur. Surely, I hope we meet again, but it is possible we will not, so go with God’s blessings, whatever the case.
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In Scripture, too, we encounter “until” being used merely to indicate an indefinite period whose conditions may or may not be met. Thus, we read, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam 6:23). Of course, this should not be taken to mean that she started having children after she died. If I say to you in English that Christ “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), I do not mean his everlasting kingdom will actually end thereafter.
While “until” often suggests a future change of state, it does not necessarily mean that the change happens — or even can happen. Context is important. It is the same in Greek, where heos, or heos hou, require context to more fully understand what is being affirmed.
The teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary does not rise or fall on one word, rather, a body of evidence from other sources such as: Mary’s question to the angel as to how a betrothed virgin would conceive; Jesus entrusting Mary to the care of a non-blood relative at this death; and also the long witness of ancient Tradition.
He certainly WILL, if they never became Christians. Remember, only Christians will go to Heaven. To reject Him, however, would be their choice. If you want to tell Jesus you don't like the way He is running the show, knock yourself out.
Why do you care about His brothers and sisters anyway? You are a Catholic. I think you believe they did not exist. I am an ex Catholic. I believe they did exist. I just don't know if they all got saved. They might have. We just don't know. It is not important to our salvation.
If anyone, including them and you, do not wish to get saved, that's on you. He provided the way. It's up to you to respond to it. Get over it. Sheesh.
You’re right — Jesus battles Satan.
Jesus is the seed of Mary that will crush the head of the seed of the serpent — the devil.
But that isn’t what the official roman catholic bible says.
*
Meant to ping you to 221.
I am not aware of any Apostle or student of one of the Apostles who addressed the issue to defend perpetual virginity. Can you point me to one or two prior to 170 -200AD?
I cannot. The Apostles certainly would have known whether or not Mary had any other children, but as far as I know, there is no record of the Apostles ever commenting on this issue. The earliest document on the subject is said to have been written in the 2nd century and it wasn’t until the 3rd or 4th century that others wrote about it. From what I understand, Christians of that time believed, almost without exception, that Mary was a virgin her entire life. I’m not sure why they believed this; I may someday look at the writings from that time. For now, though, we are losing an hour and I need to retire for the night. Good Night and peace be with you.
IMHO, Jesus Christ had to be born via the birth canal, otherwise he wouldn't have qualified as a substitute sacrifice for our sins as a human.
Then why didn't the Holy Spirit inspire the gospel writers to say, "Joseph knew her not until the day he died."? Wouldn't that dispel any doubt about Mary's perpetual virginity?
If Joseph had other older children, why didn’t they go with him and Mary to the mandatory census in Bethlehem?
Then why do so MANY Catholics DISBELIEVE the Creation Story?
If there were any, perhaps they were born in a different census area; and were of age, so they went there.
Once we get into the area NOT covered in Scripture; all KINDS of scenarios can be hypothesized.
Most, if not all, will be a waste of time.
But, Rome seems to like the method.
What can ya do?
Actually, the angel DID tell Joseph what to do and that was to take Mary *AS HIS WIFE*.
That comes with certain responsibilities and privileges.
So he did and knew her not until AFTER she gave birth.
Honestly, I don't know how much clearer it can be stated short of saying, *After Jesus was born, they had sex* and even then they'd argue it.
It’s ludicrous to presume that Jesus only had four male cousins with those names, and that nobody else had cousins with those names.
To make it say, aren’t His cousins here, James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon is no proof of anything.
Probably everyone had cousins with those names.
FOTFLOL!!!!!
I appreciate that.
However, while it has been used as a justification for the belief, it still doesn’t really answer the question of the significance of the necessity of her remaining a virgin.
It’s not like sex with her legal husband would defile her. She would not have sinned.
Abstaining from sex while married is not a virtue as there is nothing wrong with sex between a husband and wife. It’s a right and proper thing for married couples to do.
Matter of fact, in a marriage is it not withholding sex from the other spouse grounds for annulment by the Catholic church?
Why did you stop short so as to leave people with the wrong opinion? At any rate, here’s the remainder of the commentary from your link:
“Others understand it of the Scriptures, the word of God, which as it is a sealed book to men learned and unlearned, so a gate shut up; it cannot be opened by a mere natural man, or be understood by the light of nature; none can open it but the Lion of the tribe of Judah; who gives the spiritual knowledge of it to whom he pleases, the perfect knowledge of which is reserved to a future state; and there are some things in it which will be always shut, and ever secrets; as the modus of the subsistence of the three Persons in the Godhead; the generation of the Son, the procession of the Spirit, and the union of the two natures in Christ; see Isaiah 29:11, others think that the gate of heaven, or the way to eternal glory and happiness, is meant; which was shut by the sin of man, and could never be opened again by any mere man; but Christ by his blood has opened the way into it; and has entered into it, not as a private, but public person, representing all his people; and none but those that belong to him, that are members of him, shall enter there; as none but Christ personal, so none but Christ mystical: but I am rather of opinion, since this whole fabric, as we have seen, is an emblem of the church of Christ on earth in the latter day, the way into that is designed here; and its being shut signifies, that, as the church is a garden enclosed, a spring shut up, and is only for the use of Christ, and should be a chaste virgin to him, he should have all her heart, affection, and faith; so it should not be pervious unto others; no natural or unregenerate man should enter into it; and when the Lord shall have taken up his residence in the church in the latter day, in a more spiritual and glorious manner than ever, there shall no more come into her the uncircumcised and the unclean, Isaiah 52:1, and especially in the New Jerusalem state nothing shall enter that defiles, or makes an abomination, or a lie, Revelation 21:27 none but those that are Christ’s, that are true members of his, and one with him; and this sense agrees with what follows in this chapter, and receives light and confirmation thereby; in which the Lord complains of the Israel and church of God in these its present declining times, that unregenerate persons were admitted into the sanctuary of the Lord, to communicate with the saints, and officiate there, Ezekiel 44:7 and commends such who are faithful ministers and members, who are established therein, Ezekiel 44:15.”
“How utterly deceitful, institutional scale deception.”
I was blown away the first time I saw, “She shall...”
If I want to deceive many, I will have to start at the beginning. If only I can get them to fall for that, the rest will be pretty easy. That part, “She shall ...,” is the necessary bait, IMHO, and sets the stage for the rest.
Think of reading the rest of the Bible with that little nugget tucked away in your mind.
So then Joseph was a perpetual virgin too?
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