Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven [John 8]

Times of India ^ | 12/26/2015 | Michael Day

[Jan_Sobieski]

In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences. Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: "You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don't believe and who don't seek the faith. I start by saying - and this is the fundamental thing - that God's mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

"Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience."

[...]

In July, Francis signalled a more progressive attitude on sexuality, asking: "If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?"

[ebb tide]

Because you are as confused as she is. It’s obvious from both of y’alls posts on this thread.

[metmom]

Here are a couple of passages which show that forgiveness and salvation are not equivalent: Psalm 103:12, Mark 2:5, Luke 23:43, Mark 1:4 (coupled that with Acts 19:3-4).

Just staggering.....

When God forgives someone, their sin is no longer credited to their account. They are judicially declared righteous, the Christ's righteousness credited to their account, enabling them to stand in God's presence.

IOW, they are saved.

[vladimir998]

“Because you are as confused as she is. It’s obvious from both of y’alls posts on this thread.”

I’m not the least bit confused. And I have never had a reason to believe Mrs. Don-o is confused. Again and again - just like now - you show yourself to be wrong. If you want to debate Mrs. Don-o, do so. Why would you be posting to me, however? I was not talking to you, nor were you responding to anything I posted. So, why post to me?

[vladimir998]

Thanks for demonstrating the error that I pointed out was an error. Forgiveness and Salvation are not the same. “Judicially declared righteousness” is not all a saint is given by God. Neither forgiveness nor “judicially declared righteous” is as must as what is promised in 2 Peter 1:4. That is the difference between being forgiven and being saved.

[vladimir998]

“is as must”

Should be:

“is as much”

[Politicalkiddo]

Then why even have heaven? Why even have religious moral beliefs? Why did Jesus die? It’s idiots like this that make me distrust Catholicism.

[maxwellsmart_agent]

What the pope has said is not true. A person who does not believe in God has no chance of heaven. Just read the bible. Over and over again, reference is made to the point that you must believe in God in order to make it into heaven. A man who says otherwise is distorting the truth.

There comes a time when you must rely on what you have learned and been taught, and not listen to what is twisted teaching. Why would God allow somebody who spends their life being arrogant and ignoring science and nature and all other evidences to say there is no God enter heaven when you and I are breaking our necks to serve him, and we have to worry if we’ll make it? Come on! Get real! Atheists going to heaven?

[qwertyz]

“... for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.”
-Romans 2:14

[ebb tide]

I like to kill two confused birds with one stone.

Just face it. Bergoglio is a heretic who denies EENS.

[qwertyz]

No offense was intended. We see through a glass darkly. We’ve only begun to THINK about God’s mercy. Let’s consider ...

“... for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.”
-Rom 2:14

In Romans and in Acts, St. Paul clearly shows that God’s mercy is not limited by an absence of understanding or the presence of mistaken thinking (as opposed to willful error) about God due to our sin-darkened intellect. Rather, our ignorant state stirs the Holy Spirit to dispel error through evangelism ... “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness [d]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Regarding Hebrews 11, where do you see the patriarchs “did not achieve the Salvation of Christ”? The text says “they did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.” What was promised was Christ. Christ’s incarnation completes or perfects the faith that saved them without seeing or fully comprehending how salvation would be accomplished.

[At Christ’s birth, everyone rejoices that the promised Savior is finally present. This child is the Lamb of God who will take away the past sins of David, Moses, etc., and our sins in the future. Note Mary’s rejoicing of Him who will “perform the mercy promised to our fathers.” And Zechariah’s rejoicing: “He promised to show mercy to our fathers: and to remember his holy covenant.” And Simeon’s rejoicing: “My eyes have seen your salvation.”]

Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration. Surely, they did achieve the salvation of Christ — a free gift given to them in spite of not having the clear, incarnational, Trinitarian thinking you and I may have.

[vladimir998]

“I like to kill two confused birds with one stone.”

Except Mrs.Don-o and I are not confused. Thus, only you are confused.

“Just face it.”

Your confusion? Yeah, I face that here all the time.

“Bergoglio is a heretic who denies EENS.”

If he does, then apparently so does Pope Pius IX. Of course you would need to have read Quanto conficiamur to know that. And you ave not read it since the last time I told you about it, right?

[qwertyz]

In the end, is it just a matter of doctrinal brainpower, of thinking that we have saving faith, that assures our salvation?

“... we cannot be sure if we are loving God, although we MAY HAVE GOOD REASONS FOR BELIEVING that we are, but we can know quite well if we are loving our neighbor.”
-St. Theresa of Avila (my emphasis)

“Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him. In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another.” (1 Jn 4:7-11)

St. John’s short letter is very good at keeping together Christ’s divinity, His redemptive sacrifice, and our response of charity — a unity eloquently expressed by Pope Francis:

“In the Old Testament, the requirement to be holy, in the image of God who is holy, included the duty to care for the most vulnerable people, such as the stranger, the orphan and the widow (cf. Ex 22:20-26). Jesus brings this Covenant law to fulfilment; He who unites in himself, in his flesh, divinity and humanity, a single mystery of love.

“Now, in the light of this Word of Jesus, love is the measure of faith, and faith is the soul of love. We can no longer separate a religious life, a pious life, from service to brothers and sisters, to the real brothers and sisters that we encounter.

“We can no longer divide prayer, the encounter with God in the Sacraments, from listening to the other, closeness to his life, especially to his wounds. Remember this: love is the measure of faith. How much do you love? Each one answer silently. How is your faith? My faith is as I love. And faith is the soul of love.”
(10/26/14)

[ebb tide]

Mrs. Don-o said:

“The fact is that nothing “quoted” by Scalfari was actually “said” by Pope Francis.”

“Only a person seriously into defamation would find that fact irrelevant.”

Yet, I provided a link to the Zenit transcript of the letter (post 129) that Bergoglio actually did say:

“First of all, you ask me if the God of Christians forgives one who doesn’t believe and doesn’t seek the faith. Premise that - and itis the fundamental thing - the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience. Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience.”

She falsely accused the author of the article of serious defamation; yet you blindly jumped onto her bandwagon.

[TexasRepublic]

“stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.”

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[Salvation]

Thanks. God works in mysterious ways sometimes.

[Zuriel]

I was about to go to bed, and read your comments. The following is cut and pasted from an earlier discussion I had with others many months ago. It’s kind of long, but hopefully will give some references to help in your study:

The following shows a LOT of proof that water baptism is in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin.

First of all, is it not right to believe on the Lord as HE instructs us to believe on him? He gives very explicit instructions in being born again, beginning with John 3:5-8. Then, at the end of the Gospels, we read his words of commission to his apostles.

Matt. 28:19; the Lord commanded that THEY baptize souls.
Mark 16:16; The Lord commanded to his disciples that one must believe and be baptized.
Luke 24:47; The Lord commanded that repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
John 20:23; The Lord commanded that whose soever sins YE remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins YE retain, they are retained.

Then following those commands, the apostles preached Jesus Christ, commanding repentance, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receiving the Holy Ghost.

Jesus has made it quite clear that if you want his blood on you, you must be ‘buried’ in his name.

In Acts 2:37 (Jews) we find convicted souls asking, “what shall we do?”

The ‘wide way’ answer seems to be, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved”. But no details, such as HOW to believe, contrary to what the Lord and his apostles specifically commanded.

2:38; “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. (note the position of the commas in the KJV.)

Now I will list the separate DETAILED accounts of water baptism:

8:12,13 (Samaritans) “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip...”.

Notice they ‘believed, and were baptized’. (sounds like fulfillment of the the Lord’s command in Mark 16:16; “He that believeth, and is baptized..”). They had NOT received the Spirit yet. Peter and John were then called to come to Samaria:

8:16; “(For as yet he was fallen upon NONE of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)”

The Ethiopian eunuch: 8:35-38; “Then Philip....preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See here is WATER; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down INTO the WATER, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.” (first detailed witness mentioning water used in baptism).

10:46,47,48 (Gentiles) “...Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid WATER, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the NAME of the Lord...”. (care to guess what that name is?)

AND, remember these words of Peter: “Can any man forbid water..”. That is the second detailed witness mentioning water baptism).

In Acts 11 we find Peter back in Jerusalem, after the conversion event at Cornelius’ house in Caesarea, testifying of their receiving the Holy Ghost. With God giving them the Spirit, his hand was forced to obey God’s ordained plan, and baptize them in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. Notice his testamony at that point:
11:17; “Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; WHAT WAS I, THAT I COULD WITHSTAND GOD?”.

God expected Peter to do HIS part, and baptise them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission sins. Peter HAD to do it, for it was required by God.

Re-baptism in Ephesus: 19:5,6 “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

1Cor. 1:17 is a declaration by Paul, telling us that his ministry was not just baptism. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have baptized ANYBODY!)

Now, the list of the brief mentioning of baptisms. You may argue that those are ‘Spirit’ baptisms only. Can you prove that? I say they are water baptisms, or both (and Paul is involved in all but the first of them):

Acts 2:41 about 3,000 were added.
9:18 Saul/Paul’s conversion.
16:15 Lydia and her household.
16:33 keeper of the prison and his household.
18:8 Crispus (one of several Paul admitted to baptizing in Corinth. 1Cor 1:14,16)
22:16 Saul/Paul again.

Now, the references to baptism in the epistles, which were written to those already born again (note the intro to those letters; ‘brethern’, ‘faithful’, ‘saints’, etc., that’s the context).

Romans 6:3; “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
4. “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:....” (That’s certainly not Spirit baptism, because the Spirit is life.) “..that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the FATHER, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
5 “For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection.”

Col. 2:12 is quite similar: “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the operation of God, who raised him from the dead.”

Buried,...planted.....That sure is clear to me: Paul is referring to water baptism, and Spirit baptism, as separate events, and that both are required.

1Cor. 1:12-17
Now is as good of a time as any to address the inconsistancies of the ‘water baptism is not essential’ folks:

When faced with passages that mention baptism, but don’t specifically say that it was water baptism, the ‘not essential’ crowd will say it’s not talking about water baptism. But, when faced with the passage in 1Cor. 1:12-17, then they wholehearted agree that it is referring to water baptism.
(I have just taken the afore mentioned Acts 18:8 (Crispus), and solidly put that passage in the water baptism category.)
Then there is the emphasis on the name, which Paul makes clear to be Jesus: 1Cor. 1:13 “Is CHRIST divided? was PAUL crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the NAME of Paul?”
(Yes, Paul baptized in water at Corinth, in the name of Jesus.)

But then the ‘not essential’ crowd totally dismisses baptism at times, using the “..Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..”; when Paul JUST got done admitting to baptizing several souls. Oh consistancy, though art a jewel.

Heb. 6:1-3 is written to those born again: “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection: not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. And this we will do if God permit.”
(Notice the ‘doctine of baptisms’ is plural?)

1Peter is also written to born again souls. Look at 1:2, “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBEDIENCE and SPRINKLING of the blood of Jesus Christ...”.

1Peter 3:20,21 is quite plain, if you are willing to allow it to harmonize with everything presented so far. 20 “...eight souls were saved by water.” 21 “The LIKE figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Water baptism is not a bath, but is done in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. That is how it saves. That is how one has the answer of a good conscience toward God. Being “buried with him” is where you get his blood on you, but his NAME must not be left out.

If there is no resurrection, then water baptism is a waste of time. “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” 1Cor 15:29.

That’s Paul (the one who wasn’t suppose to baptize), saying that if Christ (and the asleep in Christ) rise not, then it is all vain. Of course, we know that is not the case, since Christ is risen, and the Spirit poured out.

Being born again requires obedience, which is NOT ‘our OWN works’. As Paul said to the saints in Rome:

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” Rom. 6:17,18

I hope this helps. I will gladly answer any questions. God bless.

[Irenic]

I took your suggestion and read John last night and will be doing it again today. Thank you.

[Irenic]

Thank you for the post, you’ve given me plenty of direction for study.

[Polyxene]

Who did elect this guy and why???

[MrEdd]

The German Bishops, who collectively own a publishing conglomerate which is the largest producer of pornography in Europe.