Posted on 11/19/2015 1:55:44 PM PST by ebb tide
It is the same with Lutherans and Anglicans. They might have a high liturgy and a more sacramental view of the Lord’s presence than a Baptist, but the 39 Articles of Religion–the Anglican statement of belief (which has never been scrapped) specifically denies transubstantiation. The Lutheran Formula of Concord also denies transubstantiation. The Lutherans and Anglicans believe “The Lord is present†but not as Catholics do, and although individual Lutherans and Anglicans may have a Catholic understanding we can’t decide policy and behaviors according to each individual’s theological opinion.
It is very nice of the Holy Father to be kind and welcoming to the Lutheran wife of the Catholic, but there is another side to the question. He is being very pastoral to the Protestant but how pastoral is he being to those of us who convert to the Catholic faith?
Some of us have given up virtually everything to convert to Catholicism. We have given up careers, homes, family and future and entered the Catholic Church as simple supplicants. We have made great sacrifices for church unity. When a Catholic pastor bends over backwards to make every accommodation possible for a Protestant and hints that it is okay for them to receive Catholic communion how “pastoral†is that to the men and women and their families who have given so much because they really did believe there was a difference between Lutheran and Catholic and that it was worth giving up everything to be in full communion?
What does it say to those who refrained from Catholic communion for months and years and waited until they were received to finally be one with the Lord in communion? What does it say to the Protestants in my RCIA course who come faithfully to Mass every Sunday and come forward for a blessing while they are catechized?
Why couldn’t the pope smile and say to the Lutheran spouse what I say to my Anglican mother in law when she grumbles that she can’t receive communion in the Catholic Church?
I give her a hug and say, “If you really want to receive communion in the Catholic Church you may.â€
“Really?†she asks.
“Sure.†I say with a grin. “All you have to do is become a Catholic.â€
I wish the pope had said to the Lutheran woman, “If you really feel such pain at the separation between us and your not being able to come to communion with your husband there is a way forward. Come into full communion with the Catholic Church! Bring all the gifts and graces you have received as a Lutheran! Be a sign to others of the importance of church unity! You are not denying the good things in your Lutheran experience, but you are completing them by becoming a Catholic because all the graces and good things you had as a Lutheran were derived originally from your Mother the Catholic Church. We are here. We welcome you!â€
I give her a hug and say, “If you really want to receive communion in the Catholic Church you may.â€
“Really?†she asks.
“Sure.†I say with a grin. “All you have to do is become a Catholic.â€
The demarcation is that “concordance Lutherans” (NOT the cryto-Calvinist group that calls themselves ELCA) will not agree that the Sacrament of the Altar is ^required^ for salvation.
Sola fides; sola gratia; sola scriptura
No. The demarcation is whether one is a Catholic or not.
Well...yeah
Beautiful. Wither you want to or you don’t want to, and stop whining.
“might have a high liturgy and a more sacramental view of the Lord’s presence than a Baptist”
Bullshine. Not having the trappings of a Roman mystery cult such as incense, funny hats, vestal virgins etc does NOT mean Baptists do not view the Lord as present in a very real and full way.
And not to put too fine a point on it, but a simple white wooden Baptist Church in west Texas is clearly closer to Jesus intent than some European cathedral like in Cologne or Rome.
Your funny
In 50 years or so, the author will likely be complaining that there are Lutherans in Heaven. “Hey, Jesus, thanks for letting me in. But why did you let THOSE folks in, too?”
That's only what you think, nothing more.
Well, since modern catholiciism is not even Christianity, with all the catholic heresies and blasphemies, it is very likely that the assertion regarding the little church in Texas is correct.
I’m not big on comparisons. I’m fine with Jesus’ “Where two or three are gathered in My name” teaching.
The author clearly stated he was discussing a ‘sacramental view’, he was comparing and contrasting in a dispassionate way. The tone of your answer is unbecoming.
Of course the Lord's Supper isn't required for salvation. Neither is baptism. Thief on the cross.
But, rejecting the idea of baptism or the Lord's supper is a dangerous position to take.
For example, someone becomes a Christian. They die on the way to baptism, never having had communion. There is no problem with their salvation.
On the other hand, if someone says they are a Christian, but rejects the idea that they need to be baptized or receive communion... well what happens to them is above my pay grade, but it sounds like blasphemy against the holy spirit to me.
Says that they are more Catholic than the Pope.
So...
you would agree with me that the “crypto-Calvinist” ELCA blasphemes and denies the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments (as well as the rest of the Calvinist/Zwingli tradition).
First of all, I do not think that an orthodox Lutheran and an orthodox Catholic should commune together.
But I could believe all that I believe and be a Catholic. I could not believe in the incarnation and be a Catholic. From personal, and up close, experience the only requirement to be “Catholic” is to go through the RCIA classes and call yourself “Catholic”.
Simply put, I could not commune in a Catholic parish because I am never quite sure what the priest and congregation believe. The variance is so far that it honestly shocks me. But all are in communion with Rome, so it is all good (never mind that for any sort of theology of Communion, they CAN’T be).
The current Catholic theology is schizophrenic. There is a large body of written tradition that is used to justify all sorts of things. The is very little unity, no core doctrines, and so many just plain mad dioceses and parishes that to talk of inter-communion is silly. Communion with the priest who denies the Incarnation? Or with the one who gives a pass to abortion supporters? Or the one who marches in a Gay parade? The one who preaches that Latin is needed to get to heaven, and all those who don’t use it in Mass are Dammed?
Which Catholic church?
Deuteronomy 4:19 & Malachi 1:11.
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