Did Thomas More and John Fisher die for nothing?

Denver Catholic ^ | 10/19/15 | Archbishop Samuel Aquila

[af_vet_1981]

Jesus then continues to say, basically, that Moses was wrong ...

My instincts were correct. You have essentially denied what Jesus said. You would be better served to be silent and wait on the Bishop of Rome.

Search the scriptures; Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses forty five to forty seven ,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James, bold underline emphasis mine

[DoodleDawg]

My instincts were correct. You have essentially denied what Jesus said.

Your opinion, not instincts. And if you honestly believe that I am denying what Jesus said then I'll chalk that up to more of your opinion as well.

[af_vet_1981]

The first portion is from Protestant verse thirty nine,
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

[Cedar]

You are correct in everything you’ve said here. And very well said, I might add.

[DoodleDawg]

You are correct in everything you’ve said here. And very well said, I might add.

Thank you. Others may disagree but I'm not going to pass judgement on them...because in Matthew it teaches us not to do that as well.

[af_vet_1981]

You are correct in everything you’ve said here. And very well said, I might add.

False; Jesus never said Moses was wrong. How could he when Jesus is the pre incarnate Word and told Moses what to say and write ? He simply explained why that law was written (it's intent was to protect women, which is why the Jewess was put away (divorced by her husband) was explicitly allowed to remarry; the Messiah gave a new commandment, which shocked all the apostles.

You both would be better served to wait on the bishops and pray, rather than going Protestant as others seem to be doing.

JESUS AND THE LAW

577 At the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus issued a solemn warning in which he presented God's law, given on Sinai during the first covenant, in light of the grace of the New Covenant:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets: I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law, until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.329 578 Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments".330 He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly.331 On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.332 This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God's forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, "Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."333

579 This principle of integral observance of the Law not only in letter but in spirit was dear to the Pharisees. By giving Israel this principle they had led many Jews of Jesus' time to an extreme religious zeal.334 This zeal, were it not to lapse into "hypocritical" casuistry,335 could only prepare the People for the unprecedented intervention of God through the perfect fulfillment of the Law by the only Righteous One in place of all sinners.336

580 The perfect fulfillment of the Law could be the work of none but the divine legislator, born subject to the Law in the person of the Son.337 In Jesus, the Law no longer appears engraved on tables of stone but "upon the heart" of the Servant who becomes "a covenant to the people", because he will "faithfully bring forth justice".338 Jesus fulfills the Law to the point of taking upon himself "the curse of the Law" incurred by those who do not "abide by the things written in the book of the Law, and do them", for his death took place to redeem them "from the transgressions under the first covenant".339

[Cedar]

Wait for..?? By God’s grace I was born again and filled with the Holy Ghost in 1976. The Lord continues to keep me by His mercy and grace.

We know Jesus fulfilled the Law. Jesus also clearly gave His directions on marriage. Why is that a problem?

[af_vet_1981]

Wait for..?? By God’s grace I was born again and filled with the Holy Ghost in 1976. The Lord continues to keep me by His mercy and grace.

Which Protestant denomination or sect do you regularly assemble with ?

[af_vet_1981]

Oh the rich irony; I mistakenly assume both you and Cedar were devout Catholics ... what is the difference between a remarried woman and an unmarried woman with a boyfriend if they are, theoretically speaking, not abstaining from sexual activity ?

[DoodleDawg]

Oh the rich irony...

Glad to see you're having such a good time.

what is the difference between a remarried woman and an unmarried woman with a boyfriend if they are, theoretically speaking, not abstaining from sexual activity ?

Do I really need to define adultery for you or quote the 6th Commandment?

[af_vet_1981]

Do I really need to define adultery for you or quote the 6th Commandment?

Not what I meant by difference; what is the difference in the penalty for a remarried woman who was divorced and an unmarried woman with a boyfriend but not abstaining from sexual activity ?

[Cedar]

I was born into a Catholic family, went to Catholic school grades 1-12 and graduated. Went to Mass, received sacraments, etc, all those years. But have not been back to the Catholic church since 1976. I am, however, a Christian and have fellowship with a non-denominational group.

As for the second part of your comment, you can refer to the New Testament Scriptures for guidance on fornication (sex outside of marriage) and adultery. I do believe God is the Judge of all, and I try to leave the judging to Him (though I’m not always successful at that, unfortunately). But when discussing Scripture and doctrine, I try my best to stay true to what the Bible says.

[af_vet_1981]

I was born into a Catholic family, went to Catholic school grades 1-12 and graduated. Went to Mass, received sacraments, etc, all those years. But have not been back to the Catholic church since 1976. I am, however, a Christian and have fellowship with a non-denominational group.

As for the second part of your comment, you can refer to the New Testament Scriptures for guidance on fornication (sex outside of marriage) and adultery. I do believe God is the Judge of all, and I try to leave the judging to Him (though I’m not always successful at that, unfortunately). But when discussing Scripture and doctrine, I try my best to stay true to what the Bible says.

Thank you for your reply. I cannot but wonder why you, a Catholic who left the Catholic faith around 18, were drawn to this thread by my post. I cannot help but think your faith community could be further categorized (Calvary Chapel, Pentecostal, etc.) if you were so inclined. I cannot also help but think it would be wonderful if you could find your way someday to a Catholic Church and make a sincere act of contrition. May it be well with you.

[mware]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS3Ra0TayTs

[Cedar]

I read many threads in FR’s “Religion” section. I love God’s Word and realize there have been many martyrs who gave their lives for their belief in the Lord and the Scriptures. I guess the title got my attention.

[maxwellsmart_agent]

Following the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew chapter 19, ‘if a man gives his wife a bill of divorce, lest it be for fornication’ he does wrong. That is what I shall follow. It’s true that Moses allowed it, but Jesus nullified that with his words.

Logically, marriage is committing to a union for the purpose of raising children in a family atmosphere. To disassemble that union for trivial reasons goes against logic. All kinds of reasons can be offered, but Jesus offered the rule we must follow. If one doesn’t want to follow it, that’s his choice. He’ll answer on the last day.