Posted on 08/21/2015 7:07:55 AM PDT by Salvation
There is a common Protestant claim that there is one (sole) mediator between God and Man—Jesus. Therefore, they say, asking the saints to pray for us is useless, wrong, and maybe even sinful. Those who object, usually cite some of the following texts:
To this claim, we should first answer that we do not teach a substitutional mediation in invoking the saints, as if we were trying to go to the Father apart from Jesus’ mediation.
Rather, we speak of a subordinate mediation, in which we seek the prayers of the saints, or of one another. For indeed we could have no communion with them or one another if it were not for Jesus Christ, who as the Head of the Body, the Church, unites all His members and facilitates our communion with one another.
Objectors seem to speak of there being one mediator in an absolute sense, excluding any other possible interaction or any subordinate mediation. But consider that if there is only one mediator in an absolute sense, then no one ought to ask ANYONE to pray for him; and neither should the objectors attend any church, read any book, listen to any sermon, or even read the Bible (since the Bible mediates Jesus’ words to you).
A “mediator” is someone or something that acts as a “go-between,” acting to facilitate our relationship with Jesus. And though Jesus mediates our relationship to the Father, He also asked Apostles, preachers, and teachers to mediate, to facilitate His relationship with us.
Thus Jesus sent Apostles out to draw others to him. St. Paul says, How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ (Rom 10:14-15, 17).
And thus Jesus has His relationship with us mediated through His Word and through the Apostles and others who announce that Word and draw us to Him.
But since some Protestants say that there is absolutely only ONE mediator, and no subordinate or deputed mediators, there is therefore no need to ask ANYONE or ANYTHING to mediate. So should they not burn their Bibles, stop asking anyone to pray for them, and seek no advice, since NO ONE can mediate a single thing? No one can do this because there is, as they say in an absolutely unqualified sense, only ONE mediator—one and only one.
But for those of us who see that there is a subordinated mediation in service of Christ’s supreme mediation, the prayers of others, preaching, and teaching all make sense. And just as the Bible can mediate His presence and will, or as a preacher can mediate His word, so too can the prayers of others (including the Saints) convey my prayers to Him. And Jesus can mediate my prayers to the Father and give graces to me by mediating them through others.
Consider the analogy of the body, since the Church is Christ’s Body. Jesus has one Body and all the parts are connected through the Head, who is Jesus. Now consider your own body. All the members of your body have communion and unity through your head, your mind. There are different ways to have interaction with others. Perhaps someone will reach you through your ears by speaking, or through the sense of touch by tapping you on the shoulder, or visually by waving. Various members of your body facilitate (mediate) interaction with others in different ways, but it is all facilitated through the head of your body, your mind. So, too, do I confidently expect to reach Jesus in different ways: directly, or through one of His members (realizing that He Himself facilitates it).
And thus for us Catholics, our relationship with Jesus is a rich tapestry of relationships with all the members of His body, those who are with us here and now as well as those who have gone on before us but remain members of the one Body, the Church, with Christ our Head.
Jesus says that to call Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob "dead" --- by implication, to call any of the citizens of Heaven "dead" --- is very much mistaken. That whole carnal mentality which says that hose who have gone on before us are "dead," is wrong.
Matthew 22:31-32
Have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Mark 12:27
"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
Luke 20:38
"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
Tagline.
The difference is that we as Catholics believe that the Act of Jesus suffering and dying, made it possible for men of good will to enter Heaven. Those awaiting His coming, that is, the Patriarchs, Prophets, and all men of good will who had passed and were awaiting His Coming in the "Bosom of Abraham" were then able to ascend with Him to Heaven as the Church Triumphant.
No one can come to the Father but through Jesus is interpreted as through His Passion, Death and Resurrection, which made all this possible, but not to preclude the responsibility on our part to seek Him, follow Him, accept and do His Will to the best of our ability. We consider mankind a family: the Church Triumphant in Heaven- the prayers and merits of the Saint s and angels in Heaven who pray without ceasing before the Throne of God; the Church Suffering, remitting the consequences of their individual sins to God and being purified so that they may be availed of the forgiveness obtained through Jesus Passion and Death; the Church Militant on earth, men of good will, trying to live a good life and baptised by water, blood, or the simple desire of a soul thirsting for the living God. As we all shared in the sin of Adam and the Redemption of the human race by Jesus, so do we as a family, all three parts, share in the Communion of Saints. Our prayers, for ourselves and for our brethren on earth; the prayers for us from those assured of Heaven and being purified of the consequences of their individual sins before seeing God-never to leave His Presence; and the prayers of those in Heaven as i mentioned before, all matter to God, and are heard and answered. But all go to God. We simply pray together and for one another to him: three parts of His Church, together as one, all for His greater honor and glory, and the good of souls!
We are one body
One Body in Christ
And we do not stand alone.
We are one body
One Body in Christ
And He came, that we might have life.
-- Dana Scallon, World Youth Day, Denver CO.
I am looking forward to counting how many non-Catholic posts get pulled for making personal attacks.
You know, like the people who claim the admonitions against sodomy are no different than those against eating shellfish, just something that applied to people in earlier times.
Yeah, happens all the time.
Is Matthew part of the scripture??? If it's not what's it doing in the bible??? Your religion says Matthew is scripture...
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
You know what that says??? That says Matthew is inspired...And you know how we know that??? Scripture alone...
People who pretend the Holy Spirit guides them personally but deny that Christ can perform the miracle of the Eucharist deny the Deity of Christ by doing so.
Heretic ? Such folks wear the Self and Self Alone title on their cuff and self-identify.
But none of that has to do with mediation, subordinate or otherwise...Trying to connect this sub-mediation to Christianity is nothing more than more human philosophy...
The bible says there is ONE and only ONE mediator...A person ought to work from that premise instead of trying to jump thru hoops to create something unbiblical that would justify his/her religion...
I think your conclusion will appeal most to those who have a strictly minimalist view of what it means to be a member of the Body of Christ.
Protestant-bashing.
As opposed to a maximist view??? What it is is a biblical view...The bible tells us not to go beyond what is written...Why would anyone disobey that???
Grace and Peace.
As was inevitable, you failed to post a verse that said Matthew’s Gospel was inspired. Posting a verse that says ALL scripture is inspired does not tell us anything about Matthew’s Gospel unless a person has already come to believe the Church’s teaching that Matthew’s Gospel is scripture. Notice, the verse you posted, never mentions Matthew, or his Gospel.
Don’t feel bad. Every Protestant fails here because there is simply not a single verse that mentions Matthew’s Gospel or that Matthew wrote a Gospel.
So does that mean that if the RC Church’s teaching tomorrow says the “Gospel of Thomas” is scripture, then it must be accepted by all Christians as scripture?
“So, in other words, the Bible is wrong?”
Per my Catholic friends, one who’s an ex-priest, yes; they do believe the Bible is wrong if/when it conflicts with the tales and bafflegab made up by the Catholic Church. (One of the primary indications that an organization is a cult is elevating men higher than God.)
So the Bible, the Final Authority, clearly saying “there is one Mediator” means nothing.
Adding further insult is using saints as go-betweens for prayer. Once again, anti-Bible and anti-Christian.
It would be nice if the Catholics who are 100% pro-Constitution would give the same amount of respect to the Bible.
May we all meet one day together in heaven!
You know what that says??? That says Matthew is inspired...And you know how we know that??? Scripture alone..
Would you be kind enough to give us the exact definition of the word "Scripture as found in the Koine Greek.
I am no kind of comparative theological expert (surprise!) but have noticed over the years that most of the theology I hear from Protestant FReepers centers more on soteriology (consists almost entirely of soteriology) whereas historic Christian thought (Catholic/Orthodox) encompasses the whole Incarnational mystery of Christ. This includes His activity in bringing us to share in His divinity, who humbled Himself to share in our humanity.
I am not saying that this emphasis is entirely lacking in Protestant thought. I am saying, though, that I have noticed that it seems to be scanted, minimized, in FReeper thought.
So many FR discussions end up with one side saying, "But that's for Christ alone!" and the other side saying, "Right, and we are in Christ alone!"
Thus we pay close attention to the revelation that we are being made partakers in the divine nature -- which is what the life of grace actually is. He acts through His Body (that is what is meant by His incarnation) and we are that Body.
We identify with Him, and He identifies with us. Which is why, when He was addressing Saul of Tarsus, persecutor of the Church, He said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
“So does that mean that if the RC Church’s teaching tomorrow says the “Gospel of Thomas” is scripture, then it must be accepted by all Christians as scripture?”
Your question makes no sense. The Catholic Church has only taught that there are four inspired Gospel books. The Gospel of Thomas, as a Gnostic gospel, could never be declared to be scripture by the Catholic Church nor would the Church ever have the desire to do so.
What is much more likely - since it has already happened - is that groups influenced by fringe Protestant movements would declare trash to be scripture. Hence, Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price as well as the Seventh Day Adventists’ view of Ellen White Gould’s published nonsense. The same may be true of the ramblings of Mary Baker Eddy but I’m not sure if they’re considered scripture so much as “authoritative” writings. Joseph Smith was originally a Protestant. Ellen Gould was a Protestant. Mary Baker Eddy was originally a Protestant.
We are responsible for our own relationship with Christ and informed through scripture, justified by faith. No man, priest, or pope stands between us and our savior. All else is silly man made tradition...no matter how fancy the skirt or how big the hat is, we all answer to the same God
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