Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
How do you know?
Because I've read it.
Why do you believe that?
Muslims read things too. why aren’t you a Muslim?
How do you know what you read is reliable?
Why do you question it?
How do you know the Word is not reliable? Why do you question His Word? Do you not believe?
I’m not.
I’m questioning YOU.
What can you say for yourself?
“Of which we have zero proof in the Word.”
No, not for those with eyes to see. Those of us who are orthodox Christians rather than Protestants understand the importance of the wedding of Cana in this regard. You will not.+
“You might read against the injunctions about praying to idols.”
I have many times. I read scripture often. And what anyone can tell - anyone who isn’t a bigot of course - is that Mary, the mother of Jesus is not an idol, is not worshiped, and is a human being who required Christ’s grace as we all do. You might want to review verses about the evil of bearing false witness.
“It’s in the New Testamemt.”
It’s in the Old Testament first. And I’ve read all of them. And I’ve read those books of the Bible you probably never have.
“It’s better than being an idolaters.”
But with you it probably isn’t as enjoyable as bearing false witness right?
Anti-Catholics have to resort to lying. It’s their way:
“To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation.” (John Henry Newman, Lecture 4. True Testimony Insufficient for the Protestant View)
Don’t impute unbelief to me.
Peter says you must be ready to explain your faith. Please do so. Tell me why Scripture is reliable.
And no circular arguments. “I believe it’s reliable because it says so.” None of that, ok?
What ya got?
. Catholics pray to Mary in contradiction of the Word; they have erected idols of her in their churches which they kneel before and pray to in contradiction of the Word. They've elevated her role, by some writers, to essentially telling Jesus what to do and He does it.
. If all that isn't worship then Catholics are totally blind in this issue.
They cannot offer one clear text from the NT that ever accords Mary any of these attributes. Not one.
As you are the one questioning the reliability of scripture, the burden is upon you to show why it’s not. I’m growing tired of your little game.
So much for the bogus Scripture Alone game some people play because they constantly rely on their own personal choice of non-Scripture resources rather than Scripture.
This incoherent rambling is comical coming from a faith that cherry picks scripture out of context and reads into it what is not there and selectively cherry picks the ECFs. I give you the Roman Catholic Church. But there may a small ray of hope yet. Another thread had a catholic Msgr beginning to use the Greek. Good to hear even though it is 2000 yrs late.
Scripture Alone is your petard, hoist yourself.
“pray without ceasing;”
We have a form of ascesis called prayer of the heart. It is the unceasing repitition of a certain prayer throughout the day, an unceasing prayer:
“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”
It takes a little practice, but after awhile it becomes as easy and regular as breathing. It becomes the background mantra of your life.
“I wonder sometimes why you and nkp_vet post these in the open forum if you anticipate there will be contrasting comments”.
I post the truth. If you can’t handle the truth that’s your problem, not mine. Try reading the words of the founder of your “faith”. His name was Martin Luther, and he had
the exact same views are any Catholic has today.
Well, it's not a game and it's not bogus. I know you've been told that by your church. They wish to retain relevance and power. That's the game they play and it is bogus. How did the wise men know to seek out the Child that was born in Bethlehem? Did their Church send them? Did their Pope send them? Did Jesus say "Search the Scriptures . ." John 5:39 or search the priests for their answers? Is the Word a lamp unto our feet or not? Is every Word pure, or not? Should I listen to you and your church or God? I already know my answer to these questions so no need to answer them for my sake.
Mary had read the Scriptures.
Andrew and Peter had read the Scriptures.
Jesus said "it is written a lot."
You might try searching the Scriptures. They hold the Truth.
Sorry, logic doesn’t work that way. You don’t ask people to prove a negative.
I take it you have nothing to offer? No basis for your belief in scripture?
I post the truth.
Not regarding Mary, catholics don't.
If you can’t handle the truth that’s your problem, not mine.
Trust me...I don't mind the engagement....one of your fellow catholics though has a tendency to run to the RM when the heat is on.
Try reading the words of the founder of your “faith”. His name was Martin Luther, and he had the exact same views are any Catholic has today.
Bad news for you....Luther isn't the "founder" of my faith.
So Luther is back to being on the good list again?
That poor guy doesn't know if he's coming or going with you catholics. One day is evil....next day a saint.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.