[UK Telegraph's Tim Stanley] Why I became a Catholic [Ecumenical]

Catholic Herald ^ | 8/16/15 | Tim Stanley

[Montana_Sam]

Jesus tells us that if we deny him before men, he will deny us before his father. Yet Peter denied him before men. Three times. The Lord required Peter to affirm his love thrice (feed my sheep, feed my lambs, feed my sheep). Peter's denial was an offense to the Lord, and Jesus could have simply cast him out and denied Peter before the Father. But he didn't; he forgave him.

Now, you and I do not have the opportunity to speak to Jesus directly, as did Peter. Instead, Jesus gave us the Church, and he gave us priests (Alter Christos) that have the authority to forgive sins. Each priest derives his authority from a bishop that can trace his (the bishop's) authority back to Peter. It is the Apostolic Tradition. Other Christians may or may not be able to trace their roots back to a specific Apostle, but as a Catholic, I know my bishop and my priest have a chain of authority that is rooted in Peter who was directly commissioned by Jesus in the Bible.

[markomalley]

If you believe Christ has forgiven you of your sins....why do you need a priest?? Why not go straight to Christ? He's listening I promise you.

(Speaking to the apostles, Christ said) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:23)

The penance I've seen/heard catholics do is usually more than a couple of prayers.

Really? The harshest penance I have ever been assigned in my life (and in my life I've done some whoppers to be penitent about, by the way) took me no longer than 30 minutes to complete. I'm not saying that such a thing doesn't exist, but I have, honestly, never heard of a huge penance being assigned to anybody in the last 1,000 years. (In former times, penances for grave sins would be public and long lasting, but that practice was done away with centuries ago. Frankly, part of me sort of wishes that it wouldn't have been done away with as it would have acted as a deterrent. No, I don't want it re-imposed...tough to go back, but I think the world would have been a lot different had people had to account publicly for the wrongs they did)

Where I do disagree is the concept of the mortal sin causing you to lose your salvation.

First of all, to make sure you're clear -- for an act to be a mortal sin, three conditions must exist: (1) the act, itself, must be objectively grave; (2) you must know that it is a grave act; (3) you must have freely consented to the act.

As an example, consider two women in a bar.

The first woman had a couple of drinks with a guy she met and went up to his room with him and they had sex.

• The act of sexual relations outside the context of marriage is objectively grave
• The woman knew that the act was grave
• However, since she was slipped a mickey, she was probably not in a position to freely consent to the act

Since all three conditions were met, it appears that a mortal sin was committed.

The second woman was slipped a mickey and then was taken to the guy's room:

• The act of sexual relations outside the context of marriage is objectively grave
• The woman knew that the act was grave
• However, since she was slipped a mickey, she was probably not in a position to freely consent to the act

Since she didn't consent, no mortal sin was committed.

I personally think the fundamental disconnect here with your statement, Where I do disagree is the concept of the mortal sin causing you to lose your salvation.

I think the fundamental disconnect here is with the basic concept of salvation. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that some Protestants believe that Salvation is an event (you were saved once and that's that). Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in that statement.

The concept with Catholics is that we believe salvation to be a process.

We believe that we were saved in baptism: Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet 3:21)

We believe also that it is an ongoing process: By which also you are saved, if [IF] you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. (1 Cor 15:2)

We believe that this ongoing process will continue until our death. If we continue to believe, we will be saved from wrath: Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him. (Rom 5:9)

Now you mentioned Ephesians as a proof text. What about Ephesians 5:3-5?

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you, as becometh saints: Or obscenity, or foolish talking, or scurrility, which is to no purpose; but rather giving of thanks. For know you this and understand, that no fornicator, or unclean, or covetous person (which is a serving of idols), hath inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

To me that seems pretty clear cut...those ones aren't going to heaven.

But suppose somebody had a conversion experience and then later fell back into old habits before his conversion.

Does that mean that God ignores fornication after the believer converts? Or does it mean that the believer who falls wasn't actually saved in the first place? [I've actually heard people claim the latter]

Or you have this one from St John:

He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death. (1 John 5:16-17)

St John is talking about believers praying for each other. But yet there is a sin unto death?

Don't get me wrong, I don't for a second think that God repents of His gifts to us. But I do believe that it is fully possible for one to walk away from those gifts.

[Montana_Sam]

But then why did Christ tell his Apostles at the Last Supper to 'do this in memory of me'? And why the tremendous discourse in John 6 regarding the Bread of Life? Once Jesus ascended back to the Father, how were the people to get the bread of life?

Perhaps you have answers that make sense to you, but the thousands of years of prayer and penance by some of the great minds that have put together the writings on the scripture make sense to me. Augustine, Aquinas, etc. The best thing is that when I have questions, I have the entire communion of saints to interrogate.

[Syncro]

Yes I know.

I always try to show, from scripture, the truth to those that disagree with you and I on this.

[Faith Presses On]

This just doesn’t fall under ecumenical. You can’t just post to Catholics here, like Protestants just can’t post to Protestants. There was an article a few weeks ago, I recall, having to do with some Protestant belief, but one line mentioned the Catholic Church, so it was changed from a caucus to an open thread.

[Faith Presses On]

Sorry. I meant to ping the Religion Moderator too in my post 45 but erased that address by mistake.

[Syncro]

Looks like everyone can post to everyone.

Ecumenical Caucus.

It appears your may be mixing apples (Catholic caucus) (Protestant caucus) etc with oranges (Ecumenical caucus.)

It seems to me if it is Ecumenical, it is open to all belief systems that would come under the heading of “Christian.”

It does seem that some posts have become very tangential and look more like preaching/proselytizing rather then discussion.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I suggest you double-check the RM’s page regarding caucus/ecumenical/etc and the rules regarding each.

[ealgeone]

Now, you and I do not have the opportunity to speak to Jesus directly, as did Peter.

Oh but we do. We can approach the Throne of Grace as noted in Ephesians 3:12 and Hebrews 4:16.

We've been adopted into His family if we believe (Galatians 4).

[ealgeone]

>>Where I do disagree is the concept of the mortal sin causing you to lose your salvation. <<

First of all, to make sure you're clear -- for an act to be a mortal sin, three conditions must exist: (1) the act, itself, must be objectively grave; (2) you must know that it is a grave act; (3) you must have freely consented to the act.

This is a man-made concept along with venial sins. It is not present in the NT.

[ealgeone]

Now you mentioned Ephesians as a proof text. What about Ephesians 5:3-5?

Read the whole chapter in context.

Focus on verse 6 in particular the words sons of disobedience.

[Rashputin]

"It is not present in the NT."

Matt. 12:32 -
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I John 5:16-18 -
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that is not a deadly sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not deadly. There is sin which is deadly; I do not say one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not deadly. We know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who is born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

So, what "NT" are you referring to ? The concept of degrees of sin is clear in every New Testanment I've ever read.

[ealgeone]

Read the passage in Matthew in context. you have to read the whole passage. Can those circumstances be reproduced today?

[GunRunner]

I’ve gained a friend in Jesus and a spiritual mother in Mary. When I’m lost for words, I pray to St Francis de Sales. When the seas get choppy, I pray to St Christopher.

I've always thought of Catholicism as a mixture of idolatry and polytheism, that masquerades as a monotheistic faith. This guy essentially admits it.

[Rashputin]

LOL. Just pretend Matthew is out of context as a way to totally ignore the passage from I John which is very, very, clear with regard to there being degrees of sin.

[ealgeone]

Question: If you lust after a woman for 1/2 of a second....sin or not?

[Cronos]

When you become a Catholic, you become a part of something much bigger than yourself. I can go to any place in the world and am guaranteed to find a church where there will be a Mass that I will understand and can take part in

I can attest to that -- I've been for mass in the US, Canada, Ireland, UK, Belgium, France, Germany, Poland, India, Bahrain, Italy, Greece, Czechia, Hong Kong, etc in myriad languages and I'm always surprised at how much I can follow. The commonality, the universality, the catholicity is a comforting environment to pray to Our Lord

[Cronos]

WVKayaker — you do realise this is the story of a man converting from leftist beliefs to Christianity, right? It’s not about the flavour of Christianity.

[WVKayaker]

WVKayaker — you do realise this is the story of a man converting from leftist beliefs to Christianity, right? It’s not about the flavour of Christianity.

Hahahahahahaaaaa!

Another spinmeister, without a good story to spin! Roman Catholicism is just another form of leftism! It is faith in some manmade system, not what we find in Script!