Access to heaven

There is a problem, a gap so wide that we can hardly be heard across it. To ME, to say, as Msgr. Pope does (and you, and others do) that the Episkopos and Presbyteroi of the Church are priests in Christ's priesthood ... TO ME that makes perfect sense and is congruent with 1 Cor 12 and elsewhere.

So WE would say, there is ONE Priest, even our Lord IHS XP, and the bishops and priests are priests in Him. It's not a multiplicity any more (or less) than any body is.

But metmom, hearing us says this, says, more or less, "There is ONE priest." And we are left shaking our heads because we thought we just said that!

(In this connection it's fun to do a word study on the phrase "in Christ" and related phrases like "in Him," or "in me" in the gospels and Paul.)

In related news, while the various contending schools of dispensationalists are impressive in their scholarship and their certainty, they strike me (no offense meant to anyone) as tone-deaf to the questions of time and eternity, of a changeless God engaging with temporal creatures.

So they cite a truly impressive array of verses and passages and,as it were, fold their arms and say,"Q.E.D." And yet I am almost completely unmoved and unpersuaded because, as far as I can see, they are imposing "enlightenment" and even materialist and empiricist categories in questions before which materialism and empiricism crumple.

While the REAL, 8-cylinder, turbo-charged, fuel-injected gnostics accuse of of being crudely materialistic, a great many Protestants and other non-Catholics say we are "mystical." But it is philosophy baptized (I mean, philosophy perfected by revelation) that leads me to say that an unnoticed arbutus in an unbaptized land sings a song of praise to the Creator which only those who have been graced with the Spirit will understand (to some small extent) but which all those aware of their longing for something outside the world may, MAY, hear.

To me personally and as a dilettante philosopher, the song of the flower which today is and tomorrow is not is a matter of grave importance when I, creeping on my knees, approach the throne of grace.

To them some of what I just wrote is incomprehensible and the rest perilously mistaken. Conversation will not flow smoothly.

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mat 28:16-20 RSV)

Is that what Catholic priests do??? Why do you leave the rest out that was recorded in Mark???

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Why do you chop up the narrative and take out only what you want???

Do the believing priests (all) cast out devils and speak in new languages??? Do they play with deadly snakes and drink poison??? Why not???

I don’t see priests mentioned......

Wrong. They are not the only ones who have a calling from the LORD. Protestant ministers have the calling from the LORD also. Not just the pope and catholic priests.

1 Timothy 3:1-13 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Elders and deacons. Not priests.

The mediation for salvation is done through Jesus alone. That's why God tore the curtain in the Temple in two.

It's not needed any more because of the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross. Therefore, there is no need for an earthly priesthood.

No priests (whatever denomination) can claim to be doing (present tense) the done/finished (past tense) work of Jesus. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in heaven. He is not ministering at an altar anywhere. How can they claim to be representing Jesus when they are not doing what He's doing?

That’s changing the subject. We can look at the line frome Apostles to bishops to priests at another point in the conversation. The assertion or implication was made that all the laity have all the offices and charisms. Paul says otherwise. That’s all this quote shows.

The assertion was made that the command to Go into the world and proclaim the Gospel to all was made to all.

The text says it was made to the eleven.

I did not post to address every possible question. I posted a text only, and tht text was fairly clear who was there when the command was given. Ths snake-handling and poison drinkking is another question, and a good one. But it is not the question of to whom the command was given.

You said,He did not set up a special class of people.
Paul seems to say he set up many special classes.

You said, The Holy Spirit empowers ALL people to do His work in the world. Paul seems to say not every single person was equipped or called to every every part of his work.

One post can't settle all question, any more than one member of the body can exercise all the functions of every other member.

I won't be suckered this way. Either your claim about very member is relevant or it is not. IF it is relevant, I have brought up an objection. And if it is relevant, it might be good to address the objection.

If it is NOT relevant, then why was it brought up?

Is this a catholic caucus thread?

Every thread on this site is a de facto Catholic caucus thread with the new rules.

You seem to have a point there ...

“To them some of what I just wrote is incomprehensible and the rest perilously mistaken. Conversation will not flow smoothly.”

I found it interesting. In a less “artsy” way, Romans 1 backs you up in that the creation speaks proof of the Living God.

I believe John was dealing with “REAL, 8-cylinder, turbo-charged, fuel-injected gnostics” in his first letter, lol. He pulled their engine and shut ‘em down real good, though.

Perhaps you do not accept that Jesus was a great leader

What an absurd assumption, not supported by any facts in evidence.

Therefore a straw man comment which is seemingly posted to cause dissension.

...and formed His Church through the Apostles and their successors.

That too.

But His church, not his (Catholic) Church, which is usually what "His Church" denotes.

The body of Christ (his church) is made up of course the apostles, disciples, followers and every born again follower/believer in Jesus.

Didn’t Jesus command his Apostles and their successors to go teach and Baptize all?

But isn't that what every Christian should do in part? Seems like all scripture is the Holy Spirit speaking to all true born again Christians.

If you wish to not do that because you think Jesus left you out of that commission, fine no problem.

You may feel the opportunity to reach Jesus on your own...

Sure, why not? That is what the Bible teaches. Go to the one mediator and High Priest Jesus, no middleman necessary.

If you, because of your particular belief system, want to use a middle man, this Christian has no problem with that. It's your call.

you shouldn’t discount Catholic priests that are following the path of Jesus and the apostles.

Sure, why not? The ones that are doing that, cool. If they are following the path of Jesus they are born again followers/believers of/in Jesus.

The message of salvation taught by the Word of God (Jesus is the scriptures) is simple, straightforward, and easy to understand.

Thank you for your excellent post, metmom.

Very clear, scriptural and easy to understand.

Snippet:

“The mediation for salvation is done through Jesus alone. That's why God tore the curtain in the Temple in two.”

Amen, mediation.

And the curtain, from the top down. God is so precise.

The writer states....” Catholic priests are ‘configured’ to Christ the High Priest by the grace of God. Christ ministers his priesthood through them.”.....

There is no mention of a priesthood in the New Testament that functions like the roman catholic priests changing the bread and wine to his body or blood or give absolution to ones sins. ......The only priest we are to confess to and acknowledge today as our priest is Christ. Heb 6:20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Because Christ sat down his sacrificial work as a priest is done. He now mediates for us as our defense attorney 1 Jn.2:1,2: “If anyone sins we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” Only someone perfect and righteous can absolve our sins. As ‘born anew” believers we have Direct Access to God. Because of Christ’s sacrifice of Himself and His perfect high priestly mediation on our behalf. It gives all of us a special position with privileges before God. All believers are on equal access to approach God. We can come immediately into the very presence of God by our high priest who is God (Heb. 4:16).

The Roman Church by not allowing the people to participate in the priesthood of believers deny them their right to function as a priest in the work of the kingdom. Which is why there is no gospel presentation for one to be saved by faith..... They must continually take the sacraments given by the priesthood..... They have copied the Old Testament format of the priesthood that has passed away. Christ is now is our one high priest and we minister unto him and for him.

Because Christ sat down his sacrificial work as a priest is done.

Jesus in heaven

Acts 2:32-36 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Acts 5:30-31 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Ephesians 1:15-23 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:1-4 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Hebrews 9:11-17 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:1-2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.

Hebrews 9:24-28 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:8-14 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews 10:15-18 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

**Is this a catholic caucus thread?

Every thread on this site is a de facto Catholic caucus thread with the new rules.**

Where are you getting this idea?

Excellent references...Indeed!

Some would prefer to continue to crucify The Lord Jesus Christ, even after His resurrection and Ascension into Heaven where is interceding for believers daily, THERE.. Such is a hallmark of a pagan belief and eating the Pagan god via the foods sacrificed to the idol. Perhaps that's why the first Church council at Jerusalem sent that admonition in the letter from James and the rest of the Apostles and The Holy Spirit for believers to refrain food sacrificed to idols, from fornication, and from blood.

No priests (whatever denomination) can claim to be doing (present tense) the done/finished (past tense) work of Jesus. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in heaven. He is not ministering at an altar anywhere. How can they claim to be representing Jesus when they are not doing what He’s doing?

There is no tense when speaking of Christ’s actions

Christ lives in karios time

You live in chronos time

And fortunately never the twain shall meet

AMDG

“Christ lives in karios time”

Close but no.

Jesus choose to come into the time frame we occupy, but only for a short time.

God lives outside of time.

God has existed forever—which includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit—and before the solar system, with earth, were created there was no time factor.

Those of us that are assured of salvation actually live in the Kingdom of God even though our bodies are here on earth.

14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
---Jesus praying for us John 17:14-19

To surround Jesus (I am assuming that is who you mean by Christ) with a time/space continuum wont fly.

Access to heaven It is only through the blood of Christ that the gates of heaven have been opened allowing us to enter Msgr. Charles Pope