The Crafting of the 4th Century Roman Church, Doctrine, and Papacy

triablogue ^ | February 26, 2013 | John Bugay

[boatbums]

If anyone REALLY wants to talk about "long treatises", they simply must pay a visit to the Vatican libraries. There they will find miles and miles (26 miles of shelving) of canon law texts, encyclicals, papal bulls, codices and theological as well as pagan and secular manuscripts and that's not even counting the Vatican Secret Archives. Over the last several years there has been an undertaking to digitize the millions of documents, so, who knows, one day we can read the long treatises from our computers in the comfort of our home! ;o)

[boatbums]

Correction...the Imaginary List of Popes

[boatbums]

Half truths and innuendos trying to pass as history.

So glad you are starting to realize that about your Roman Catholic religion's so-called "history". Keep up the good work, RnMomof7, some of it is actually breaking through the hardened hearts! ☺

[Salvation]

The author needs to check the list, because by the end of the 300s (4th century) history shows that there were already 39 Popes.

[Salvation]

**every Catholic posting**

You're sure about that? Do you have an "every" category now for Catholics?

I think your post is false.

[Salvation]

You are talking about the poster, right?

[roamer_1]

Taking no position on the article, was that humor to ask her to reduce long treatises to a few sentences? It had to be, every Catholic posting I see is unbelievably long, and reads like a motion in an investment banking securities fraud trial.

HAHAHAHA! Now that's exactly right! I would have never written it so perfectly, but you are right on that - exceedingly dry and absurdly long... 'almost torturous' would seem to be the guideline.

[Salvation]

((Where did Jesus make bishops?**

Paul ordained Bishops. Have you read 1 and 2 Timothy lately.

Christ ordained the apostles by breathing on them and giving them the power to forgive and bind sins.

[Salvation]

You do believe the Bible, correct?

JOHN 20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

[avenir]

I found the article instructive.

Remember, it was RELIGIOUS men that clashed with Jesus because they were afraid of Him taking their place away. They should have joined John the Baptist in saying “He must become greater, I must become less important.”

“In holy things may be unholy greed”—George MacDonald

The perks of religious office spoil many a man, and it spans the entire spectrum of Christendom. Catholics may have a long resume of shifty leaders, but so did Israel and so does everyone else.

This is a core human nature problem.

[boatbums]

Whose "history" should we check?

From http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search/label/the%20non-existent%20early%20papacy:

This again proves that there was no such thing as a Papacy in the early centuries, and even Leo I, cannot really claim to be the "first Pope". Many church history textbooks, unfortunately, are misleading and anachronistic, by writing things like, "Pope Leo I" or "Leo I, the first Pope" or "Gregory the Great, bishop of Rome from 590-604 AD, the first Pope". Even Gregory in 601 AD did not claim to be univeral bishop and in fact rebuked John of Constantinople for making such a claim. Gregory wrote the the Emperor Maurice: "Now I confidently say that whosoever calls himself, or desires to be called, Universal Priest, is in his elation the percursor of AntiChrist, because he proudly puts himself above all others. ( Gregory I, bishop of Rome, 590-604 AD; Book VII, Epistle XXXIII)

[Rashputin]

And, by the by, there only two places in Scripture where the particular form of the word "breathed" that is used when Christ breathed on the Apostles is uses. In that passage and when God breathed life into Adam.

Nothing unique or enduring about that sort of breath, right? I mean, nothing passed down to us from Adam so the Apostles likewise had nothing they could and did pass down through those they anointed to take their place.

[verga]

You so silly.

[verga]

Yes

[eastsider]

The first known extra-scriptural reference to apostolic succession is 1 Clement, written during the apostolic age:

44:1 Our Apostles, too, by the instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ, knew that strife would arise concerning the dignity of a bishop;

44:2 and on this account, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed the above-mentioned as bishops and deacons: and then gave a rule of succession, in order that, when they had fallen asleep, other men, who had been approved, might succeed to their ministry.

44:3 Those who were thus appointed by them, or afterwards by other men of good repute, with the consent of the whole Church, who have blamelessly ministered to the flock of Christ with humility, quietly, and without illiberality, and who for a long time have obtained a good report from all, these, we think, have been unjustly deposed from the ministry.

44:4 For it will be no small sin in us if we depose from the office of bishop those who blamelessly and piously have made the offerings.

44:5 Happy are the presbyters who finished their course before, and died in mature age after they had borne fruit; for they do not fear lest any one should remove them from the place appointed for them.

44:6 For we see that ye have removed some men of honest conversation from the ministry, which had been blamelessly and honourably performed by them.

1 Clem 44 (tr. Charles H. Hoole, 1885).

[CynicalBear]

There is no such office of priest in the New Testament church other than Christ as the High Priest and all believers as priests.

[Elsie]

 

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,

' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'  

[Elsie]

Half truths and innuendos trying to pass as history.

Really???

Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.^[1]

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy

Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy

Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.^[2]

Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.^[3]

Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony^[4]

Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

[CynicalBear]

>>It wasn't until the 2nd century, after the Apostolic Era ended, that a centralized structure began to emerge.<<

And not until Constantine that all authority was centralized in Rome.

[verga]