Posted on 04/04/2015 1:54:16 PM PDT by Steelfish
Yes, in context this is the Passion of course. Our Blessed Lord was speaking of it, as he did many times, in many places. I view that take on “tense” as a cauistry.
Why skip the Catholic sources that tie those symbols to 1) the existing worship of the Father and 2) the book of Revelation? I would say that the average evangelical service I see on TV (which are pretty good for all if you ask me despite disagreements on their scriptural mistakes) incorporates drums, guitars, microphones, amps, sound board mixes, suit and ties, toms of make-up, healing over the TV by prayer, etc Are not these the Pagan instruments of our time? Of course. But I’m not really proving anything here and so what? The point is they are they belong to Our Lord now.
The basis for praying for the dead is in St Paul and Tradition.
Second Timothy: For Onesiphorus “The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day” -
Tradition - all the early church prayed for the dead, as did many Jewish sects. In fact, praying for the dead comes from the soul of the living as a calling we all need to participate in.
Old Testament - II Machabees, xii, 40-46. When Judas and his men came to take away for burial the bodies of their brethren who had fallen in the battle against Gorgias, “they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten . And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve [al. two] thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep in godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”
Please describe where the Church refuses to hear the words of Our Blessed Lord?
That never was part of scripture until the Catholic Church added it. The oracles of God were entrusted to the Jews and the Jews never considered it scripture.
If you hold the apocrypha to be scripture do you also burn fish hearts to ward off demons? Do you believe that have a daughter is a shame?
>>Please describe where the Church refuses to hear the words of Our Blessed Lord?<<
God said don't take things the pagans use to worship their gods and use them to worship Him. The Catholics do use things the pagan's use.
No - wrong. It’s in the Septuagent. Which means St Paul read it as his Bible. It means most of Jews had access to it, and in fact, the Hebrew Bible you are referring to wasn’t even in existence until much after Our Lord’s resurrection. Bible scholars have no reason to believe the Septuagent was alone in publishing the Apocrypha. So, the Apocrypha were excluded later after the time of Our Lord. Did they eliminate them as they foreshadowed Our Lord? Interesting those who fear those books, no? But make no mistake, they were there when Our Lord walked this earth.
In my view, one of the biggest problems in theology is the misunderstanding of this. St Jerome viewed Macabees in a slightly lesser form even before the 1800s - but even he never denied their influence - even if you don’t think they are in the Bible. All Protestant Bibles used to have the Apocrypha in the back and it is very recent that they were taken out, in the US around the Great Awakening.
So, 1) it is in the Bible; and 2) even if you want to argue it is not, clearly it is not a pagan source.
Second point asked and answered. See point two above. The evidence of liturgical foundations in Tradition and in the Bible have been stated clearly, OK.
Not as scripture. No sir.
Why would you disagree with what your own church says?
For the Old Testament Protestants follow the Jewish canon; they have only the books that are in the Hebrew Bible. Catholics have, in addition, seven deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament. [New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume III, Canon, Biblical, 29, as quoted in Webster, The Old Testament Canon and the Apocrypha, 24-25.]
Let's look at some rabbinical statements which testify to the cessation of prophecy in Israel in an era before the Apocrypha was written.
With the death of Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi the latter prophets, the Holy Spirit ceased out of Israel (Tos. Sotah 13.2).
Until then [the coming of Alexander the Great and the end of the empire of the Persians] the prophets prophesied through the Holy Spirit. From then on, “incline thine ear and hear the words of the wise (Seder Olam Rabbah 30).
Since the Temple was destroyed, prophecy has been taken from prophets and given to fools and children (Bab. Baba Bathra 12b).
That last one was referencing the temple prior to the one destroyed in 70AD by the way.
Even the Jewish historian Josephus wrote:
"For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, which are justly believed to be divine; and of them, five belong to Moses, which contain his law, and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death…the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life." [Josephus, Antiquities, Against Apion, 1.8]
The Catholic Church lies.
No one denies that practices used by pagans are used now. I simply deny that their use is prohibited by God or even that they are in use only by Catholics. I think even you use them and you have boxed yourself into a corner because you, too, likely pray, and if things done by pagans are prohibited, then you must also believe that prayer is prohibited. I deny that using incense, temples, prayer, vestments, processions to honor my God makes me a pagan. The things and the methods are ‘indifferent’, it is their application that matters. If I sing or dance or hop on one foot to glorify God, then I am still glorifying God.
And you have still not answered the question. Pagans were using temples and sacrifices and prayer to honor their false gods, yet God in writing commanded the Jews to use those methods to worship Him. Did God command the Jews to honor Him in pagan ways?
If a murderer uses a shovel to kill and then someone else later picks up the same shovel and uses it to plant a garden which gives food to the hungry, are the shovel and the act of feeding evil just because the object was once used for evil? Can nothing that was ever used for harm be converted to be used for good?
You just keep repeating the same statements, there is no actual rebuttal in your answers.
And you still haven’t answered the other 2 questions, so I have to conclude that you can’t.
Love,
O2
Do you not understand the difference between what God instituted and commanded and what He did not? Does the statement from scripture "do not add to or take away" ring any bells?
>>Can nothing that was ever used for harm be converted to be used for good?<<
I just point out what God says through scripture. Your debate is really with Him. If you want to trust some men over what God says in scripture that's your business.
I understand that God commanded worship of Him through the use of temples, vestments, prayer, song, etc. It is you who have condemned the use of these things.
It is you who are taking away.
Again, you avoid the question because your own statements contradict what you are trying to argue.
Love,
O2
Do you not understand the difference between what God ordained and what He did NOT ordain?
3 Kings (1 Kings) 5:5
Wherefore I purpose to build a temple to the name of the Lord my God, as the Lord spoke to David my father, saying: my son, whom I will set upon the throne in thy piece, he shall build a house to my name.
Exodus 28:4
And these shall be the vestments that they shall make: A rational and an ephod, a tunick and a strait linen garment, a mitre and a girdle. They shall make the holy vestments for thy brother Aaron and his sons, that they may do the office of priesthood unto me.
Jeremias (Jeremiah) 29:12
And you shall call upon me, and you shall go: and you shall pray to me, and I will hear you.
I understand clearly what God ordained. He commanded that temples and vestments and prayers be used to worship him. You have said that these things should not be used to worship him because they were used by pagans. Scripture is clear that God wants these things to be used in worship of Him.
Are you saying that the bible is wrong and that God does not want us to use the methods He commanded? Do you not acknowledge that God commanded this? How do you explain why you believe we should not do as God commanded?
Love,
O2
That is if you want to stay under the Old Testament laws and practices.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
>>You have said that these things should not be used to worship him because they were used by pagans.<<
I said???? I can assure you that I did NOT write Deuteronomy 12:30-31.
>>Scripture is clear that God wants these things to be used in worship of Him.<<
Please show where God ordained statues of Mary.
Thats a lot of hearsay to argue the Bible Our Lord read is somehow not valid to you. You realize that’s not really possible, and that you have to deal with those books -— throwing them out because they don’t fit a 2015 English translation understanding of the faith is not really a good way to look at it.
You say “the Catholic Church lies”. However, you provide no facts, just accusation. Obviously, even if you don’t think Macabees is “scripture” (of course as defined by the Church or we sou;don’t have it) it clearly is there, read and reflective of the beliefs and was part of the Bible St Paul read. So, you can’t just “throw it out” and you have to deal with it. Clearly, the Tradition was to pray for the dead at the time, I don’t see Our odd telling us not to, and I see the practice as clear as day. Moreover, you provide not a shred of evidence to refute these books were part of every Protestant Bible. So, you speak of them somehow illicit, when even under St Jerome’s view they were nor. Me thinks you are in a hole and are dealing with it by keep digging lol.
Now, about that case you made earlier that the Church is pagan because it prays for the dead . . . it can’t hold up under evidence, see above on the Tradition in MAcabees (and I’m not conceding Scripture, just saying for the sake of argument these Apocrapha are simply commentary.
I think in life if we just pretend certain evidence that works against our beliefs doesn’t exist, it makes things easy, but is it worth it?
Best,
Um.......what? I gave you solid evidence that the apocryphal books were NOT part of scripture and you come back with that?
Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
See that? NOT the Catholics. The Jews did NOT consider those books to be scripture. The Catholics added them.
Now I suppose you also think having a daughter is a disgrace as it says in your apocrypha? How about burning fish hearts to chase away demons? Do you also do that? Maybe smearing fish guts on someone’s eyes to get rid of cataracts? That's your scripture ey?
Sorry af_vet, that doesn’t work for you. It’s the Old Testament books that are at issue.
Irrational; there is only one standard for scripture. You seem to have ceded that point and hold a different standard for a certain set of books than others, which exposes another flaw in Sola Scriptura. The only custodians that transmitted all the scripture from one generation to another was the one holy catholic apostolic church, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.
The Old Testament scriptures were entrusted to the Jews NOT the Catholics. If you want to include books that tell you to burn fish hearts to ward off demons you go right ahead but the Jews did not.
Any Bible you have, if it is genuine, has come to you through a Catholic line of transmission. If you prefer to trust in the custody of the Jews, why do you disavow their trust and include New Testament books in your Bible ? Why do you not trust them and have a different Old Testament than they do with respect to the proper order and delineation of the books ? Why do you not use the Jewish translation of the Old Testament as the most reliable, since you hold those books were entrusted to them ?
You have no Christian inheritance of the scriptures, all of them, except through the one holy catholic apostolic church.
God used Judas for His purposes also. This propensity for Catholics to try to take credit from God and give it to man is not going to turn out well for them.
On below - which of the ancients are you referring? The Sadducees, who believed only the first five books of the Bible were inspired? Or the Jewish authorities who translated the Bible into Greek - which as you know Our Lord often quoted from? The one with Macabees? The version you are referring to is from after Our Lord, and frankly, many scholars think they found some of the books left out problematic in part because of the power of Christians. Also, remember Mark 7:6-8 - Our Lord there is quoting text not found in the scripture as codified by certain Jews in 90-120 A.D. Thus, clear that basing “scriptural” on a compilation of 90A.D. that had in part issues of dealing with growing Christianity is not a sound practice.
Also, issue was praying for the dead being pagan. As I say, the case is clear re scripture of Macabees, but even if not, as a religious text its existence is irrefutable and as such, shows praying for the dead was indeed a non-pagan practice.
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