Posted on 03/24/2015 8:06:07 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Just last Sunday, a local newspaper paper released an article teaching that the praying of the Holy Rosary is Bible-based. In the first two paragraphs, the writer admittedly says that there is no passage in the Bible teaching nor mentioned about the praying of Rosary.
However, in the following paragraphs, the writer justified the praying of the Rosary basing it on the repetition of historical events of some Bible characters (like Gideon as he mentioned) about Israels history.
I dont know if the writer of this article did some research about the origin of rosary and how it was deeply encouraged for Roman Catholics.
Praying of Rosary was encouraged when Lucia Dos Santos and her cousins Francisco and Jacinta Marto claimed to have an apparation from an angel teaching them to pray in the spring of 1916. They were asked to pray repeatedly by the angel who appeared to them. This is why the Catholics were convinced that they have to pray repeatedly.
The flaw however in the story was that, the angel gave two sets of completely different prayers. The angel appeared to the three children three times.
Then after a year, 1917, it was said that Our Lady of Rosary had an apparitions for 7 times. In her second apparition the Our Lady said:
I wish you to come here the 13th of next month; that you say the Rosary every day, and that you learn to read. In succeding months I will tell you what else I want. I would like to ask you to bring us to Heaven, said Lucy. Yes, Giacinta and Francis will be among the few, but you must stay here for a long time. Jesus wants to help Himself of you to make Me known and loved. God wishes you to remain in the world for some time because He wants to use you to establish in the world a devotion to my Immaculate Heart. I promise salvation to those who embrace it, and their souls will be loved by God as flowers placed by myself to adorn His throne. Lucy asked: Will I stay here alone?, Dont be discouraged , I will not abandon you ever. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and through it will conduct you to God.
Now here are the flaws of this apparition. First, the Our Lady is telling the children to teach the people to make her known and be loved. Note that the apparition was initiated not by Jesus, nor an angel, but the very person who wants to be made known. It is like, someone came to you and asked you using the name of your friend to introduce her to other people that you know.
The second flaw, Our Lady promises salvation to those who embrace this command. A completely heretical claim, and totally in contrast to what the Bible is saying. The Bible is very clear in saying that whosoever believes in Him (Jesus) will not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). Only God can give salvation. This is the Biblical truth that cannot be altered, deducted nor added.
Third flaw, Our Lady claims that her immaculate heart will be our refuge and through it will conduct you to God. This is another contradiction to what the Bible is saying. Come to me all you labor and are heavily burdened and I will give you rest (Matt.11:28), I am the way the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6).
The truth is, there is only one mediator between God and man, it is only Jesus Christ (Hebrews chapters 6,7,8,9, and 10)
This is the statement coming from the third apparition:
In october I will tell you who I am, that which I want, and I will do a miracle that all can see and believe. Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often this prayer, especially during any sacrifice: O my Jesus, I offer this for love of Thee, for the conversion of poor sinners, and in reparation for all the sins commited against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
The flaw of the third apparition is the claiming of honor which belongs to Jesus Christ, and the idea of co-equality with Jesus. Though she did not claim co-equality, but the fact of showing that people committed sins against her proposes the idea of deity that people needs to be so sorry for not recognizing her. The Bible tells us that there are three persona where we committed sins, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And now, here comes the Mary, an addition to the Holy Trinity.
You have seen Hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save future souls God wishes to establish in the world the devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If people do what I tell you, many souls will be saved. Then She said: If my requests are granted, Russia will be converted and there will be peace. If not, she will scatter her errors throughout the world, provoking wars and persecution of the Church. The good will be martyed, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, and various nations will be destroyed But in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, Russia will be converted, and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world. Do you want to learn a prayer? the vision asked, Yes we do! the children responded. When you recite the Rosary, say at the end of each decade: Oh My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Your Mercy.
Now lets look at this additional quotations from the third apparition. This is more like Our Lady centered command rather than Jesus centered command. Russia will be consecreted to Our Lady of Rosary than instead of Jesus. Notice the number of recitation of the Rosary. At the end of each decade (10), there is only one calling for Jesus help.
This is quoted from the last (6th) apparition
I am the Lady of the Rosary, I desire here a chapel in my honor to be built, that people continue to recite the Rosary every day. Will the war finish. The war is going to end, and the soldiers will soon return to their homes. Then Lucy asked: may I ask you for cures and conversions, will you grant them?. Some yes, others no. It is necessary that they ask pardon for their sins, that they dont offend God our Lord, and that he is already too much offended. Do you Want anything else from me? Lucy asked. I do not want anything more.
The flaw of the 6th apparition is that the Lady of the Rosary is asking for a chapel in HER honor, and not Jesus nor the Fathers honor. We have to note that taking glory which supposed to be for God is a serious sin, this is idolatry.
The apparition is completely directing people in a wrong path. It is completely in contradiction with what the Bible is saying. The Bible warn us about these kinds of apparitions in Galatians 1:8 But even though we (referring to Paul and his companions) or an angel from heaven, which should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed. This is a strong warning that we should be careful in believing apparitions especially if it gives another teachings that what the Bible already have taught us.
Just some additional observations concerning the apparition of Our Lady of Rosary. Our Lady appeared 6 times. In Hebrew culture (the Israelite culture), 6 is the imperfect number. A number usually associated with evil things. Thus, the number of the Beast in the Book of Revelations tells us that it is 666.
Another observation is the dates of the apparition. The apparition dates are significantly on the 13th of every month of that year. Even until, Roman Catholics believe that 13th is always associated with evil things like Friday the 13t h bad luck and not placing 13th floor on buildings. Not to mention all the horror movies that happens on Friday the 13th.
Now let me ask you, do you really believe that these apparitions comes from God? These apparition and commands are completely in contrast to what the Bible teaches us. They are Our Lady of Rosary centered rather than God centered. The apparitions promotes glory and honor for Our Lady of Rosary rather than the glory of God. And finally, even culture related things are in contradiction to the apparitions. Not to mention its lack of Apostolicity and Biblical support.
It seems particularly insidious for Satan to weave a web so closely to the Lord yet not the gospel. The bible talks about people doing miracles in Jesus name yet when they die the Lord says "Get away from me for I never knew you". What a mystery. It also makes me realize how much grace I've been given.
I tried to engage you on this topic ... post #656 ... but was ignored.
But I do see the 3 of you talking circles around each other.
Here's my historical/Biblical take on this matter...I'll even quote a Catholic to kick things off:
"In the fourth century a bishop of Constantinople named Nestorious...wanted to call Mary only 'Mother of Christ'; he feared that the title 'Mother of God' would confuse the divine and human aspects of Jesus. The church in the East rose up to reject Nestorius' view. To deny that Mary was the mother of God was to deny either that Jesus is God or that Mary was truly his mother. A general council of bishops at Ephesus in 431 A.D. declared, 'If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the holy virgin is the mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema (condemned)." (Alan Schreck, Catholic and Christian, pp. 175 - 176)
"Nestorious, patriarch of Constantinople, championed the term 'Mother of Christ,' while Cyril of Alexandria favored 'Mother of God. The Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431) decided in favor of Cyril." (Geisler & MacKenzie, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences, p. 299)
So...resettozero...a key historical part of all this was to fend off the Nestorian heresy...and to rightly NOT divide Jesus as to being only human, or being only divine...but that He is both human and divine...in, fact, eternally so.
I'm a Protestant. I've notice how Protestants, especially NOT having carefully reviewed church history, tend to "knee jerk" response to the phrase "Mother of God" primarily (IMO) because we know God the Father and God the Holy Spirit had no mother, and the Son of God, none from eternity past.
The historical church has pointed to the Greek word Theotokos as the original descriptive phrase -- "Mother of God":
"Harold O.J. Brown comments concerning theotokos: 'The term, which means 'God-bearing one' (not precisely 'Mother of God,' as it is frequently translated), originally was descriptive of the man Jesus, born of Mary' (Heresies: The Image of Christ, p. 172). Theotokos, therefore, was designed to say more about Jesus than to glorify Mary." (Geisler & MacKenzie, ibid)
IoW, Christmas is really more about Christ...than any characters in the Nativity. And Who is glorified by Who we focus upon in things like Christmas is really one of the points I was making (especially toward the end) of my post #656 which...btw... was ignored by all the Catholics on this thread.
So while church fathers of the fourth and fifth centuries referenced Mary as the "Mother of God," a more precise meaning of the Greek word has ALWAYS been "God-bearing one" (which may be a difference of no account, but probably at least sounds less provocative to the average Protestant).
And the main point of Post #656 is that guess, what?
And yet it's overwhelmingly humbling.
So, yes, Mary is the "god-bearing one" (Theotokos). Why argue that historical reality? 'Cause really it's frankly a settled point.
Let's instead discuss if Mary is overglorified by that reality by some segments of those who call Jesus their Lord.
And, yes I understand "why" when a Catholic book says "The springtime month of May is popularly devoted to Mary" due to it being the month of "Mothers Day" (Greg Dues, Catholic Customs & Traditions, p. 128).
But the rest of the overemphasize upon Mary is frankly bizarre:
* "Just as Sunday had always been devoted to Jesus Christ, Saturday eventually became Mary's Day. This tradition was promoted in Carolingian times by Alcuin (d. 804). A votive Mass in Mary's honor has commonly been offered on Saturday throughout modern times." (ibid)
* "The month of October is dedicated to Mary under the theme of the rosary because of the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary on October 7." (Dues, p. 129)
* And even with the history of the rosary, Dues mentions how "by the early 12th century, Hail Marys were substituted for the Our Fathers..." (p. 128)
My take is that whenever one giving birth is emphasized to the total exclusion of a rebirth -- recognizing that Mary herself was "born of the spirit" (lest not being able to enter our Lord's kingdom) -- imbalance sets in.
IF we are speaking ONLY about Mary, and not her son, then her rebirth is of vital emphasis! Seems clear from Scripture to me, that she confessed being a sinner (Luke 1:46), and she offered a sacrifice for her sinful condition (Luke 2:22). So her rebirth in our Lord is a great celebration!
Otherwise, we, too, as "god-bearers" (of the Holy Spirit) --
--were we to stress His indwelling
to the expense of failing to recognize the necessity of our own rebirth
-- would likewise be as what's deemed imbalanced re: the Roman Catholic approach to Mary.
Anyone who goes beyond what the Holy Spirit had written which is “the mother of Jesus” is purporting to speak in the stead of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did NOT use the words “mother of God” and we can be assured it was for a reason. Change the words of the Holy Spirit at your own peril.
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Like I said, no term “mother of God” ever used by the Holy Spirit.
Mary is the mother of Immanuel. Immanuel means "God with us." Therefore, according to the scriptures, Mary is the mother of "God with us."
Please show the passage from scripture that says that.
Mary 'Mother of God'=Church 'Mother of Holy Spirit?'(Are we not god-bearers-'theotokos'-too?[Vanity]
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
I put that in to help with your understanding.
But you pretty much ignored the next phrase I posted, Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit have always "been". Forever. <_______ (see it now?)
This is where you get the concept of "Personal Savior" but still maintain the mythos of "uncreated", "unseeable", "unknowable", "everywhere and no where", "unreachable", etc...
Personal savior, yep it's in the Bible.
The rest of your "words" have nothing to do with me, I never posted anything like that.
And the notion that angels are like winged fairies floating around heaven.
Those must be Mormon fairies/angels (Maroni?) my concept of angels is from the scriptures in the Bible.
Jesus said that His Father is also our Father. That makes us brother and sisters with Christ.
Yes, true for Christians. Not for Mormons. Joseph Smith REJECTED all of Christianity as he was creating the religion of the LDS.
So Mormons can be brothers with Lucifer, but not with Christians. LDS followers have a different father. Called affectionately Heavenly Father, described as a "god" that worked his way to that position. Completely un-Biblical.
The "god" of this world is satan, affectionately called "Heavenly Father" by Mormons.
Jesus taught that our Father in Heaven is both reachable and approachable.
Hay, pretty good that is true! Through Jesus who created all things. (Gospel of John---the translated correctly version)
And is literally His and our "Father".
Not "our" Father, the Father of Christians. Mormons have a "father" that is a "god" that was once a man. The God of the Bible doesn't fit that description.
The Angels are people that have either passed through this life or are waiting to come into mortality.
Not Biblical, must be in the BOM.
People NEVER become angels.
The belief that we have nothing in common with those that dwell with God is a tool of the devil.
Very true. And the tool that the devil used was Joseph Smith.
Remember he separated Mormonism from Christianity (my, the things he said about Christians was horrible, he HATED them) when he started the cult and it remains that way to this day.
If you want to dwell with God and be a brother of Christians instead of Lucifer, let me know. It's real easy. A free gift that costs you everything. But promises you eternal life with God.
PS The irony is that Mormons started calling themselves Christians for the first time a few decades ago. (Before that your leaders would NOT allow it. Wanted to fit in...didn't work!)
Anyone who goes beyond what the Holy Spirit had written which is the mother of Jesus is purporting to speak in the stead of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did NOT use the words mother of God and we can be assured it was for a reason. Change the words of the Holy Spirit at your own peril.
I’ve already responded to you about this in post 487, so I will not repeat it here, but have you ever considered how many Biblical truths would not hold by following this requirement that we cannot go beyond the specific wording for a Biblical teaching to be true?
Por favor...
Ask if he knows the name Mary AND Joseph gave her first child. Ask if he knows the name Jesus was called and known by during his time on Earth. Ask him if he was called Immanuel of Nazareth. Ask him what name Jesus is called TODAY.
(The Lord Jesus Christ is also called by many other names including Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, The Prince of Peace, plus many others Names.)
I’m lacking the necessary communicative skills to elicit an answer from that one. Would you please try asking once again please for a pertinent reply please? Thanks. R2z
God has no mother or father he is forever! Scripture tells us that his name is Jesus Christ the Messiah, the Anointed One, and the second part of the Godhead. Just because you can’t or won’t understand the reasoning God had to make it that way doesn’t make it not so.
Romans 9:20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, Why did you make me like this, will it?
“Scripture quotations taken from the New American Standard Bible®,
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
Used by permission.” (www.Lockman.org)
Still no “mother of God”.
"Anyone who goes beyond what the Holy Spirit had written which is the mother of Jesus is purporting to speak in the stead of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did NOT use the words mother of God and we can be assured it was for a reason. Change the words of the Holy Spirit at your own peril."
Making up doctrines not specifically taught by the apostles that are then required for belief to gain salvation by some organization such as the Catholic Church is tantamount to changing the words of the Holy Spirit. Paul clearly stated that anyone who taught something they didn't was to be considered accursed.
I suspect they cannot answer in any way that contradicts what the organization wherein they place their hope for salvation says.
I did say something along these lines in terms of my "scriptural" reference in my earlier post--not in specific terms about the Lord's Prayer, but in terms of the overall scriptural "witness." In other words, I consider this line of argument stronger than other lines.
No, "mother of God with us" includes "mother of God."
Do you deny Mary is the "mother of God with us ?"
What did the angel tell Mary to name her baby?
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