Will there be a rapture?

Unsealed.org ^ | 3/12/15 | Gary

[PieterCasparzen]

What is a Christian to use the signs for ?

[sasportas]

Since both amessenger4god and Mrs.Z seem to hang so much on Pseudo-Ephraem’s supposed historical support for a pretrib rapture, I post here Bob Gundry’s comments. This professor at Westmont College, Calif. says of the two Ephraems:

“In Pseudo-Ephraem’s sermon Christians lie buried during the tribulation. They are raised from the dead, meet the Lord after the tribulation, so that their ‘meeting of the Lord Christ’ in the first supposedly pretrib passage of section 2, can hardly refer to a pretrib meeting without contradicting a good deal else in the sermon. Since Pseudo-Ephraem draws from true Ephraem, a look at true Ephraem offers guidelines for understanding Pseudo-Ephraem’s sermon. The guidelines turn out to be post – rather than pretrib.”

Gundry then proceeds to prove from the true Ephraem’s writings, from which Pseudo-Ephraem got his beliefs from, that “true” Ephraem himself was post-trib!

[PieterCasparzen]

The rapture in the Bible is the resurrection of believers to meet Christ in the clouds on Judgement Day.

[Big Red Badger]

Welcome to FReeRepublic!

You catch on pretty Quickly.

Thanks for being You!

[CynicalBear]

>>Why would you give someone a warning about their current activity, complete with telling them to repent, etc., and then immediately act on their condition at the warning.<<

Where does it say "immediately"? I can find no time frame given between chapter three and chapter four. If you do would you please point it out to me?

>>And since the bible does not explicitly SAY that He acted on it between the end of 3 and the beginning of 4, I can find no reason to speculate on such an event.<<

The churches had already been told how those who were faithful and true would "escape the wrath to come". Why would John have to repeat it? The seven churches were simply being warned to get back to their "first love". They knew the consequences.

>>And just because something is not “seen immediately” in following verses does not mean it is not there.<<

Jesus told the church in Philadelphia towards the end of chapter 3.

Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

The rapture of the faithful must happen before the seven year tribulation.

[PeteePie]

G-G; you make a great point, we must be prepared for persecution but the world has also seen numerous saints live the balance of a normal life (save for personal crisis, i.e., sickness, divorce, etc.) affect others for Christ then one day they died. They didn’t go through any great persecution, they weren’t denied life and limb for their faith, they lived by faith then they died. Why is it so hard to believe that God would spare the church from the worst form of wrath?

[cuban leaf]

Regarding your entire post, I think you are stuffing way too much information between the lines. However, there is one line that offers a chink in my position. It is this one:

Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

However, it doesn’t go into detail about how they will be kept from it. And one could question what that hour of trial is to “test” the world’s inhabitants that they will be kept from.

This is why ALL of our positions are a bit of a clutching at the scriptures that support our particular viewpoint. It is why “ever virgin Mary” believing Catholics insiste upon translating the word “brothers” everywhere the bible refers to Jesus’ “brothers” to mean “cousins”. And that is, technically, one meaning of the word translated “brothers”, but it grossly strains the context.

[CynicalBear]

>>What about all the Christian martyrs who have died for the Christian faith throughout history?<<

Those are Satan's doings not God's wrath.

>>What about all the Christians around the world and especially in the Mideast who are dying horrific deaths right now because they will not deny Christ?<<

Surely you don't believe that is God's wrath on those Christians do you?

>>In their eyes they may feel like they are going through the tribulation right now.<<

Of course there is tribulation but not from God's wrath.

>>Do you really believe God is going to give you a pass and whisk you away so you will not have to stand for him yourself at some point?<<

Of course! Scripture tells us so. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". And we are promised to be kept from the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Not "delivered through" but "delivered from".

[CynicalBear]

>>Being alert, watching, being prepared - do NOT mean trying to calculate the year.<<

Who is calculating the year of the rapture. If you see anyone doing that I will join you in arguing against it. On the other hand, once that peace treaty is signed with Israel the exact number of days is know until Christ's return to defeat the armies of Satan and set up the 1000 years.

>>If the Bible tells us that no one but God the Father knows when then it is folly for a man to try to know when.<<

We don't know the time of the rapture but we surely do know the time between the signing of that treaty and Christ's return to earth.

[Kandy Atz]

Paul was teaching Jesus coming for his body in the 1st century. Open God’s Word and study it for yourself. Allow the Holy Spirit to reveal His Truth. Start with the books written SPECIFICALLY TO THE CHURCH, because if you do not know WHO you are IN CHRIST, its highly doubtful you will receive the revelation of Jesus coming for his Body.

Most of the end times confusion comes from people not knowing if they are a Jew, Gentile, or part of the Body of Christ, the Church of this age. I would encourage you to get this settled, because what belongs to Israel, belongs to Israel. What belongs to the Body of Christ, belongs to the Church.

I wish I had a dollar for every sermon, book, and college lecture I have heard/read where some theologian/pastor twisted themselves into a pretzel attempting to force the Church into the Tribulation. If you rightly divide God’s Word, it cannot be done.

[CynicalBear]

>>If it's impossible to calculate the timing of the rapture why does the dispensationalist cult keep yammering on about knowing the signs that the rapture is going to happen in 1994, 2000, etc. ?<<

Why do you ask me? I wouldn't touch trying to establish a time frame for the rapture. We certainly are told to watch for the signs it is near however.

>>Peace treaty with Israel ? What are you babbling about ?<<

Babbling you say?

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

In the middle of that seven years the anti Christ will set himself up as God in the Newly built temple and once he does that the days are numbered.

Daniel 12:11 From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

So the phrase "no one knows" cannot be about the return of Christ to defeat the armies of Satan at the end of this age.

[terycarl]

If we have received Christ, all our sins have been washed away, so why would we deserve more punishment?

we shouldn't if we accept His gift of forgiveness of our sine and CEASE SINNING...but, of course we don't. We therefore have some responsibility for our own actions unless you believe OSAS...a theory which makes no sense whatsoever. If OSAS is true, we are free to live any lifestyle that we please....after all, all our sins, past and future have been forgiven.....nice, but not realistic.

[Georgia Girl 2]

My only point is that I think it is naïve to believe that God is going to ignore the cries of all the martyrs that have gone before. When the tribulation comes all Christians will be tested. Its not farfetched that very soon you may have to decide whether you will take the Mark of the Beast. What if you have to decide to take a chip if you want to be able to buy food? Millions will do it.

Matt: 24: 10-13
10 And then shall many be offended , and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise , and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound , the love of many shall wax cold . 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved .

[CyberAnt]

Well, I don’t agree with you.

If a person who is born again, continues on in his sin; then did he really accept the forgiveness of Christ?

And, even if he did really accept Christ, then a person who continues their sin must repent and “turn from his wicked ways”.

However, never discount the last minute repentance from some who’s struggle with life has taken them way off the path. God can, and will, and does accept the repenting person.

That is a truth I will never give up; no matter your opinion.

[dartuser]

In fact, they are promised to never suffer the wrath of God.

That would be the equivalent of a man beating his wife and claiming she just needs to buck up and suffer a little.

[CynicalBear]

>>However, it doesn’t go into detail about how they will be kept from it.<<

They had already been told in the multiple verses that talk about the "catching up". They were not unaware of what was meant and neither are we if we understand those passages that tell us.

>>This is why ALL of our positions are a bit of a clutching at the scriptures that support our particular viewpoint.<<

There is no "clutching at the scriptures" when you take all of it and fit it together with no contradictions.

>>It is why “ever virgin Mary” believing Catholics insiste upon translating the word “brothers” everywhere the bible refers to Jesus’ “brothers” to mean “cousins”.<<

It's nothing like that at all in that there is clearly a word for "cousins" in the Greek which the Holy Spirit did NOT use when speaking of Jesus brothers.

>>And that is, technically, one meaning of the word translated “brothers”, but it grossly strains the context.<<

No, it really isn't. If the Holy Spirit had meant they were Jesus cousins He would have inspired the word meaning cousin like He did here:

Collossians 4:10 My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin (anepsios) of Barnabas.

Greek - anepsios - cousin [http://biblehub.com/greek/431.htm]

Those who claim there was no Greek word meaning cousin are obviously lying to us.

[Mrs.Z]

"...the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19

If there is no Rapture of the Church, why are the enemies of the Lord planning "The Lie" so diligently?

Occult and new age magazines and books are replete with false narratives to explain away this event with which you disagree.

Here are but a few of the quotes:

Planet Earth will be spared certain annihilation by an extraterrestrial evacuation of millions of people who threaten the harmony and evolution of the Earth.

Many of these beings who are leaving this planet must move on, for their thought patterns are of the past.

Those who refuse to be enlightened and infused with the light of God will be taken to other planets that are uninhabited...

Sources:

Project World Evacuation: UfOs to Assist in the "Great Exodus" of Human Souls Off This Planet - Feb 9, 1993

Earth: Pleiadian Keys to the Living Library – November 1, 1994

Bringers of the Dawn: Teachings from the Pleiadians - Dec 1, 1992

In any event, all will be explained on your way up.

[CynicalBear]

>>I wish I had a dollar for every sermon, book, and college lecture I have heard/read where some theologian/pastor twisted themselves into a pretzel attempting to force the Church into the Tribulation. If you rightly divide God’s Word, it cannot be done.<<

Same here. When they try they have to twist some other passages into something unrecognisable which contradicts other passages. They get themselves into all kinds of pickles.

[cuban leaf]

Those who claim there was no Greek word meaning cousin are obviously lying to us.

---

That isn’t what they were saying. They were arguing that adelphos could also mean cousin.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G80&t=NIV

But again, it strains the context.

[SubMareener]

Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum presents the best and easiest to understand study of the sequence of prophetic events in his book "The Footsteps of the Messiah", available on Amazon or from the Ariel Ministries Web Site. He is currently teaching at JD Farag's Calvary Chapel Kaneohe in Hawaii. Direct links to Part 1 and The Rapture of the Church.