Posted on 03/13/2015 7:43:01 AM PDT by amessenger4god
Will there be a rapture? Is it pre-tribulational? I believe the answer is an emphatic 'yes' to both questions. Here are some key points:
1. For starters, I want to address the small, but growing minority of Christians who emphatically state that the rapture isn't even in the Bible. Now I believe it is one thing to hold to various views as to the timing of the rapture event, but no rapture at all? I believe that this belief is thoroughly nonsensical. The argument often takes shape the same way that Jehovah's Witnesses will say that the Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of the "Trinity" since the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible... yet the doctrine of the Trinity is found all throughout the Bible, from Genesis 1:1-3 to Revelation. The word "rapture" is not in the Bible, end-of-story.
This argument doesn't even make sense--of course the English word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So too the Latin word that we derive "rapture" from is also not in the Bible. The New Testament was written in Greek! The Greek word for "rapture" is in the Bible. Even setting aside all other scriptures, parables, patterns, and parallels that may support the rapture, the rapture event is clearly and unequivocally taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. This passage doesn't necessarily answer the question as to the timing of the event, but yes, the rapture is going to happen. A trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ and those who are "alive and remain" will be "caught up" into the clouds. It plainly, unequivocally says believers will meet the Lord in the air.
2. Next, I want to talk about perhaps the most common argument against the pre-tribulational rapture. This argument is now known to be factually incorrect. So if you believe in a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib rapture, that's fine by me, but don't use this argument. The argument is that the pre-tribulational rapture theory was invented by a girl in 19th century Scotland named Margaret MacDonald. This is patently false. For starters, 18 years prior to MacDonald, a Catholic Jesuit priest espoused his belief in the pre-trib rapture in his book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty. We now also have clear, extra-Biblical support for the pre-trib rapture as early as 373AD (Ephraem the Syrian who clearly taught the doctrine, even using exact language). See here: http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html and here: http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/why_some_reject.htm
3. Thirdly, many Christians will often argue that the pre-tribulational rapture is not foreshadowed in the Bible and that the doctrine is just "easy-escapism". In essence they will say that God doesn't remove us from trials and tribulation, He just protects us in the midst of it.
I actually agree with their point about God protecting us in the midst of tribulation. However, this has nothing to do with the pre-tribulational rapture, which I believe is CLEARLY foreshadowed. The 70th week of Daniel (final 7 years of the age), are the years specifically set aside for God to pour out His OWN wrath. Not just the normal trials and tribulations every generation has faced because of the consequences of sin, but a tribulation God Himself sends on the world, as the Scripture says to test an unbelieving and unrepentant world (Revelation 3:10; see also Luke 21:36). That same passage says clearly says that God will keep believers from facing that coming tribulation. Elsewhere the Bible says "we are not appointed unto wrath" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
So, yes, it is correct to say God doesn't always remove us from worldy tribulation, but He does ALWAYS remove us from His wrath if we trust in Him. This is foreshadowed:
The first horseman rides forth to conquer…militarily, and we have the beginning of sorrows (birth pains) Jesus prophesied. Just the first phase of the antichrist’s career.
Which leads to the next, after having conquered, the antichrist takes rule over the world, the mark of the beast implemented, martyrdom ensues. Also prophesied by Jesus as the great tribulation.
Next, the wrath of God which you are so fixated upon. The wrath of God upon all who have taken the mark, and have submitted to the antichrist one world socialist government. Also prophesied by Jesus, Matt. 29-31.
A very good general outline if you ask me. Makes plenty of good prophetic sense. The rise of the antichrist, his rule and persecution, his demise...and wrath of God upon him and all who have fallen for his antichrist lies.
What I’m getting at here: the wrath of God is not what the imagery of the first five seals are about, the sixth seal, yes. The first five seals preconditions that lead into the sixth.
You are intent on making the first five seals the wrath of God, perhaps it has something to do with the pretrib system that is so engrained in you? I.e., the pretrib rapture takes place, which in turn ushers in the wrath of God…seen first in the seals. Not so.
Correction:
which in turn ushers in the wrath of God…seen first in the first seal. Not so.
You still aren't answering the question. Who gave the white horseman the crown and authority to conquer?
>>Which leads to the next, after having conquered, the antichrist takes rule over the world<<
The anti Christ doesn't begin to conquer untill 3 1/2 years into the last seven years of Daniel's prophesie. For the first 3 1/2 years it's peace. So your scenario does not fit prophsie at all.
>>perhaps it has something to do with the pretrib system that is so engrained in you?<<
LOL! Engrained in me? I grew up in an environment of post trib. Neither mid trib nor post trib can account for the last seven years due the nation of Israel.
CBear, you are a FR warrior, mighty good at debating, a formidable opponent of the Papists, etc., on these threads. However, that is not what I am doing here. If that is what I wanted to do, I’d be throwing stuff back in your teeth. But I’m trying to talk heart to heart with you about things dear to both of us. Apparently, you can’t see that.
Making the first horseman the first of the end time wrath of God, is indeed essential to you, and the pretrib system, and you know it.
You have yet to say anything about the seals being based on Jesus in the olivet discourse. If you reject that, just say so, then we’ll drop this, and we can both move on.
No need “to beat a dead horse,” pun intended.
Um...what? What makes you think I can't see that?
>>Making the first horseman the first of the end time wrath of God, is indeed essential to you<<
No, it's not. Nor is it essential to when the rapture happens. When the wrath of God begins and when the rapture happens are not connected per se. But, if you believe that the first seals are not from God you must ascertain and explain where they are from.
>>and the pretrib system, and you know it.<<
Nope, as I explained above. Neither you nor I can say when within that seven year period the first seal is opened.
>>You have yet to say anything about the seals being based on Jesus in the olivet discourse.<<
The Olivet discourse covers a large amount of time. It covers the time before the seven years begins all the way to the battle of Armageddon when Christ returns to defeat the armies of Satan.
>>If you reject that, just say so, then we’ll drop this, and we can both move on.<<
If anyone tells you where within the Olivet discourse or even within that last seven years the first seal is opened they are lying to you.
The rapture has to happen before the last seven years that God will once again be dealing with Israel exclusively as a nation. The full number of the Gentiles will have been fulfilled then Christ will call His bride, the ekklesia, to meet Him in the air. The anti Christ will then sign the peace treaty with Israel. At some point in that seven year period prior to the half way point the first seal is broken. We know that because at the 3 1/2 year mark the anti Christ is in full Satan mode and sets himself up as God in the Temple.
The only criteria for the timing of the rapture is that it must happen before the signing of the peace treaty with Israel. The wrath of God will not begin with the bride of Christ on earth.
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