Try not to think of the sound of a latex glove "snapping". It will only contribute to the discomfort during the examination.
Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer
Ping!
....trashing Protestants!
A classic Hebrew formulation.
Ephesians: 2 covers Christ’s Grace pretty well.
Our perspective on earth is temporal: at any khronos moment in time, we may or may not have obtained salvation, we may or may not have dis-obtained salvation. It may or may not be that salvation is not dis-obtainable in a temporal sense.
But our salvation depends on God's grace through Christ's death and resurrection, and God's perspective is not temporal but eternal. "Eternal" doesn't mean "it goes on forever without stopping," but rather that all experience occurs in a kairos at-the-moment-which-is-all-moments manner that cannot be explained in a temporal sense.
Christ, for example, has been kairos slain from the foundation of the world, once for all time, but He was slain during a khronos point in time on the cross, 2000 years ago in temporal measure.
So, assuming that I am saved, which I do assume based on Christ's merit, and assuming that I will not lose my salvation, which I do assume based on the grace of God acting in my life, then I cannot lose my salvation, because my salvation has existed since the foundation of the world, since the source of my salvation (the death and resurrection of Christ) has occurred since the foundation of the world. However, it can look, in a temporal sense, like a person could lose his/her salvation, but such a person was never saved in an eternal sense, because the whole of the person's experience would be already known in eternity.
This is where the paradox of predestination vs. free will is not "solved," because there is no solving it while we are stuck in our temporal existence, but recognized to have a solution that will be understood in eternity, when we will be in a position to understand existence both in temporal and eternal terms.
....trashing Protestants!
Projection at its finest. Maybe you meant to be on a thread authored by Gamecock? This thread isn't trashing anybody but exploring matters of faith.
And people say Catholics split hairs...
Reread the article. He deals with this by pointing out the parable of the debtor. Was he forgiven by his master? Whether in time, for all time, or at one time... he was. Should he then have forgiven others? Yes. Did he fail? Yes. Was he ‘unforgiven’? Yes.
This parable answers your complicated challenge.
***This thread isn’t trashing anybody but exploring matters of faith.***
One man’s exploration of faith is another’s trashing.
I do nothing but explore. Does that make you...uncomfortable?
Matthew 6:9-15 (RSV)
9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;
12 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;
13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil.
14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Ok, maybe it is just me, but it sure seems that the author of this piece is reading into it through his Roman lenses.
CLEARLY, if someone has an unforgiving heart, then they are a practitioner of hypocrisy in the highest order. A child of God will always be willing to forgive, however imperfectly. If someone’s heart is so hardened that they refuse to forgive, then they truly cannot know Him.
There are some subtleties here, but then again, much of the difference between Roman and Protestant theology hinges on some subtleties. However, the explicit teaching of Scripture is this:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” - Ephesians 8:9-10
“For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” - Romans 3:28
For the Romanist to declare that Justification is not by faith alone flies in the face of the clear, ordinary reading of these passages. Plus, when it all comes down to it, does it not render the Lord’s shed blood ineffectual and weak, if it is up to US to add our menstrual rags works (that’s what the Bible calls them) to the equation? Then, if so, why did Jesus even bother die for our sins? He could’ve skipped the entire ordeal and just left it all to us, rather than some of it.
Friends, please don’t abandon the Gospel’s purity and clarity for the sake of works. Works is what every other system of religion tells us we need to know god. Christianity is a fellowship with GOD through the work of JESUS, and it is victorious and triumphant. Now, go and LIVE and LOVE for Him!
Matthew, chapter 6:9-15 (RNAB)
9* “This is how you are to pray:c
Our Father in heaven,*
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,*
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.d
11* e Give us today our daily bread;
12and forgive us our debts,*
as we forgive our debtors;f
13and do not subject us to the final test,*
but deliver us from the evil one.g
14* If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.h
15But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.i >
Try not to think of the sound of a latex glove "snapping". It will only contribute to the discomfort during the examination.
Let's assume that the parable exemplifies what it seems to exemplify, that the king represents God, the servant with the huge debt represents me, and the man who is indebted to me represents my neighbor.
The two men with the debts can be interchangeable with their representations: I can be just like the servant, and my neighbor can be just like the one indebted to the servant.
But the king cannot be interchangeable with God, because the king is a man. As a man, the king gives forgiveness one day, and then removes it the next, because his experience of his own life is temporal, and the experience of the king's actions by others can only be seen temporally.
God, on the other hand, already knows, before offering forgiveness for my debt, whether I will be willing to forgive others, and thereby allow the forgiveness to "take" as salvation--otherwise, God is neither omniscient nor omnipresent. One might go a step further, based on Ephesians 2:8-10, and surmise that God already has acted in my life to both enable and cause my forgiveness of my neighbor--or, for that matter, enabled but not caused, while knowing whether or not I will cause the forgiveness. These are both possible, and it is therefore not hairsplitting: it is letting God be God, and not entrapping God as nothing more than a temporal king, someone who can act with authority, but who is entrapped in time.
Alternately, we can look at it as our needing BOTH faith AND works, with neither being sufficient by itself.
A number of Jesus' parables, not just the debtor one, allude to this. Faith must "bear fruit" in the form of works in order to be worthy.
Of course, no Protestant ever was guilty of reading into Scripture through his Protestant lenses.
Another objection due to superficial consideration. Sola fide refers to the means of appropriating forgiveness, God "purifying their hearts by faith" as Peter said, (Acts 15:7-9) referring to souls being washed and born again before baptism, and thus confessing the Lord thereby, but which is not contrary to repentance and what that may require.
For to believe on the Lord Jesus is to assent to obey Him, according to light realized. And asking forgiveness means we must be forgiving, and this prayer is dealing with believers. Who by faith, have God as their Father, but who will work to chasten them unto repentance if they do not repent, or repent fully.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)
That is where even torment in this life may come in, in working to preserve souls by faith from the torment that would result from "an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God." (Heb. 3:12)
And no mention of you know who!
If I were indeed trashing, based on the article, you are required to forgive me, right?
The OP already dealt with this challenge with examples from Scripture (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2). Some try to say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
Here's a question... why did Abraham have to try to sacrifice Isaac? Surely, God Who is omnipotent and omnipresent knew the outcome of such a challenge and didn't have to actually have Abraham demonstrate his faith. In fact, you could say that God, in this example, is only going through the motions so Abraham could have the opportunity to show his faith (and realize it himself). The test was only over after the actual attempt, not the ascent of will by Abraham. We are to DO God's Will, not just accept that we would. Faith is an action word. It is following the commands of Christ to do the Will of His Heavenly Father.
God exists out of time. We are in time. The only way we can show our love and devotion to God is in time and in following His Will. Abraham didn't take it upon himself to sacrifice Isaac before he was asked because that wouldn't be God's Will, it would have been Abraham's. He had to wait to be asked even though Scripture showed very clearly that he was ready. Our ascent is in time, as is our faith walk. In that walk, we will experience forgiveness and forgive or fail to forgive and lose our own inheritance. The process is laid out in black and white in Scripture and played out in time in history.
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