Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 341-360361-380381-400 ... 421-439 next last
To: Resettozero
I'm going to break up the paragraph below because it's just too... um, JPII. He is hard to excerpt in the first place.

From Fides et Ratio (JPII)

"There are also signs of a resurgence of fideism, which fails to recognize the importance of rational knowledge and philosophical discourse for the understanding of faith, indeed for the very possibility of belief in God. One currently widespread symptom of this fideistic tendency is a “biblicism” which tends to make the reading and exegesis of Sacred Scripture the sole criterion of truth. In consequence, the word of God is identified with Sacred Scripture alone, thus eliminating the doctrine of the Church which the Second Vatican Council stressed quite specifically.

"Having recalled that the word of God is present in both Scripture and Tradition, the Constitution Dei Verbum continues emphatically: “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture comprise a single sacred deposit of the word of God entrusted to the Church. Embracing this deposit and united with their pastors, the People of God remain always faithful to the teaching of the Apostles”. Scripture, therefore, is not the Church's sole point of reference. The “supreme rule of her faith” derives from the unity which the Spirit has created between Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church in a reciprocity which means that none of the three can survive without the others."

I realize you find this bizarre because I think it is condemning the very thing you believe, but this is the way the Church teaches.

361 posted on 02/27/2015 4:19:34 PM PST by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 360 | View Replies]

To: Resettozero
If I understand what your post means, Catholics can make up any doctrine that cannot be DISPROVEN by the Holy Bible.

If you want my REAL position and point, it is as follows:

The post-Apostolic church which took on the name "Catholic," which had it's primary centers in the original patriarchies of Rome, Antioch, Ephesus and Jerusalem, was the heir of the church established by the Jesus and the Apostles (there are no other contenders, unless you want to claim allegiance to the Gnostics and other heretical groups). That church was the one that received, discussed, and eventually accepted ("canonized") the 27 books we all now know as the "New Testament." By the time that process was completed (circa. 380 A.D.) we can find taught (and largely accepted) most of the "Catholic doctrines" that Protestants claim are "unscriptural."

Bottom line: These early Christian founders and teachers didn't find any contradiction between what they believed through Tradition and what Scripture taught; in fact, they affirmed that what Scripture taught and what they believe were the same thing. That is my view as well.

362 posted on 02/27/2015 4:24:05 PM PST by CpnHook
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 360 | View Replies]

To: Legatus
The Church and Scripture do not, CAN not, contradict one another.

RCs are manhandling the English language on this thread, at least in posts to me.

When an RC says "The Church", readers on this forum know the implied meaning is ONLY the Catholic church (Roman rite), Vatican City, Italy, and perhaps all the associated Catholic groups with different rites throughout this planet throughout time.

When an RC posts the word "scripture" or "Scripture" it can refer to whatever writings the poster wishes, not only to the Holy Bible.

Cut 'n' paste of Catholic-only writings is what RCs most often do in response to sincere questions that should make an RC of integrity stop and consider. RCs on this forum defend Catholic churches without ceasing. I contend for the Truth of the Christian faith and battle to defend the Name of Lord Jesus Christ, our only Savior, the Founder of His Church, and Sender of the Holy Spirit Who verifies what is true for all time.
363 posted on 02/27/2015 4:31:05 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 352 | View Replies]

To: CpnHook
If you want my REAL position and point, it is as follows:

The post-Apostolic church which took on the name "Catholic," which had it's primary centers in the original patriarchies of Rome, Antioch, Ephesus and Jerusalem, was the heir of the church established by the Jesus and the Apostles (there are no other contenders, unless you want to claim allegiance to the Gnostics and other heretical groups). That church was the one that received, discussed, and eventually accepted ("canonized") the 27 books we all now know as the "New Testament." By the time that process was completed (circa. 380 A.D.) we can find taught (and largely accepted) most of the "Catholic doctrines" that Protestants claim are "unscriptural."

Bottom line: These early Christian founders and teachers didn't find any contradiction between what they believed through Tradition and what Scripture taught; in fact, they affirmed that what Scripture taught and what they believe were the same thing. That is my view as well.


Yes, your stated position is Catholic church (Roman rite) dogma, published many times on FR RF with pride. Your REAL position is fairly well understood by even me.
364 posted on 02/27/2015 4:34:58 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 362 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan; Resettozero
Maybe because you ask only “gotcha” questions rather than sincere questions.

I've asked you several sincere questions to which you've yet to answer. Let's just try one.

Do you support the proposed fifth marian dogma?

A simple yes or no.

<

> It is now time for the church, at the summit of this Marian era, to proclaim and define the fifth and final Marian doctrine, that is, Mary's universal mediation as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of all grace, and advocate for the people of God. http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MEDIATRI.HTM

365 posted on 02/27/2015 4:39:18 PM PST by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 348 | View Replies]

To: Legatus
"The “supreme rule of her faith” derives from the unity which the Spirit has created between Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church in a reciprocity which means that none of the three can survive without the others.""

Isaiah 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

Traditions and men can often be a hindrance to "sanctify them with the truth,thy Word is truth"

God's written Word will survive not because of men and traditions but often in spite of them.

Herding 3,000 cats would be far easier than trying to yoke the Word with anything.

366 posted on 02/27/2015 4:42:52 PM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure:for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 361 | View Replies]

To: Legatus
I realize you find this bizarre because I think it is condemning the very thing you believe, but this is the way the Church teaches.

Talk about reading my mind and telling me what I think...just, wow.

This is the way YOUR Catholic church, one of many Christian organizations around the world, has taught YOU.
367 posted on 02/27/2015 4:43:40 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 361 | View Replies]

To: Resettozero

I put a lot of effort into my “cut ‘n’ pastes” because I don’t want to be spreading the “Gospel of Steve’s Interpretation”.

When I post the word Scripture I refer to the 73 Books of the Bible that were approved for use in the Liturgies of the entire Catholic Church. I can’t think of anything else that any Catholic might consider scripture, certainly not the canons of ecumenical councils (except for the first one) or the writings of the Popes (except for the first one).

When I refer to “the Church” I mean all those Christians in communion with their bishops in communion with the diocese of Rome.


368 posted on 02/27/2015 4:44:30 PM PST by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 363 | View Replies]

To: Legatus
When I refer to “the Church” I mean all those Christians in communion with their bishops in communion with the diocese of Rome.

In all of your posts, I've known you have referred to Roman Catholics throughout the world when you have posted the words "the Church". Nothing learned by either one of us on this point.
369 posted on 02/27/2015 4:49:07 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 368 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone

I did answer that before. AFAIK, the dogma in question (in my experience, Catholic dogmas are not numbered) is part of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. Therefore, it is true.

I have no opinion on whether it should be solemnly defined.

Why do you care?


370 posted on 02/27/2015 4:50:17 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 365 | View Replies]

To: Resettozero; edwinland; Arthur McGowan; Legatus; CpnHook

Vegas wins; honest conversation loses again on the Religion Forum thread.


If honest conversation loses, it is not due to lack of honest responses to your questions.

You may not like the responses, you may not agree with the responses, but please, accept the responses for what they are; sincere attempts to respond to your questions about our Catholic faith as accurately as possible.

Peace


371 posted on 02/27/2015 4:52:09 PM PST by rwa265
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 350 | View Replies]

Comment #372 Removed by Moderator

To: Legatus
When I post the word Scripture I refer to the 73 Books of the Bible that were approved for use in the Liturgies of the entire Catholic Church. I can’t think of anything else that any Catholic might consider scripture, certainly not the canons of ecumenical councils (except for the first one) or the writings of the Popes (except for the first one).

Catholic church-sanctioned version of the Holy Bible only.

As for you last sentence, your two parentheticals render the sentence open to personal interpretations that could go one way or the other.
373 posted on 02/27/2015 4:54:05 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 368 | View Replies]

To: rwa265
... but please, accept the responses for what they are; sincere attempts to respond to your questions about our Catholic faith as accurately as possible.

No. Any reader can see that hasn't always been the case. But thanks for your offer.
374 posted on 02/27/2015 4:56:18 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 371 | View Replies]

To: Resettozero; rwa265; edwinland; Arthur McGowan; CpnHook
No.

You think our responses are insincere attempts to respond to your questions about our Catholic faith as inaccurately as possible?

375 posted on 02/27/2015 5:15:04 PM PST by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 374 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

That’s the question the THEORY of Limbo was intended to answer.

Unbaptized babies, or any unbaptized person who is not guilty of grave sin, would go to Limbo.

Unbaptized adults who were guilty of grave personal sin, would go to Hell.


376 posted on 02/27/2015 5:18:33 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 248 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan
I did answer that before. AFAIK, the dogma in question (in my experience, Catholic dogmas are not numbered) is part of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. Therefore, it is true. I have no opinion on whether it should be solemnly defined. Why do you care?

You're the only catholic priest I communicate with.

Why no opinion?

377 posted on 02/27/2015 5:22:49 PM PST by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 370 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

No one has ever offered me a reason (as opposed to a vehement, spittle-flecked assertion) why my mother, when she lived in Baltimore, cared about me and prayed for me, but now that she is in Heaven, doesn’t care about me, and doesn’t pray for me.


378 posted on 02/27/2015 5:30:45 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 247 | View Replies]

Comment #379 Removed by Moderator

To: Resettozero; edwinland; Arthur McGowan

I cannot speak to every case, but two recent responses accurately presented what Catholics truly believe.

You called one a “Disingenuous response and not an acceptable answer” (Post 277). Your response to the other answer was to shout “YOU HAVE NEVER GIVEN ME A DIRECT ANSWER TO ANY QUESTION!!!” (Post 345)

Both responses were good answers to your questions that fairly stated what Catholics believe. You may not like them, you may not agree with them, you may even find them to be not acceptable, but they were not disingenuous and THEY WERE BOTH DIRECT ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS!!!


380 posted on 02/27/2015 5:37:11 PM PST by rwa265
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 374 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 341-360361-380381-400 ... 421-439 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson