Posted on 02/20/2015 12:24:08 PM PST by Gamecock
“You shall love your neighbour as yourself” Mark 12:31
The Faces in the Crowd
As I reflect on Catholicism I realize that faces come to mind, not a system, not a monolithic structure, not a demonic institution. I remember people who were very, very nice.
To be sure, this is my own personal experience, but it is true nonetheless, and I suspect it reflects the experience of many others. When my elder sister died, they were very kind to me. When I was an unmannerly and disobedient brat at school the Mother Superior attempted to discipline me and show me a better way. When my family arrived in a new and strange land (California), the nuns befriended us, fed us, connected us with others who could help us, invited us to a New Years Day dinner, and in the cosy confines of the convent introduced our family to the unsettling phenomenon of North American football. A Catholic family provided us with a house and more tokens of kindness than I could possibly relate.
Catholics have touched my life in ways that I shall never forget and shall always appreciate. That is why it is so sad to see them caught up in a system and in the grip of a religion that is so far from true Biblical Christianity. That is also why it is so sad when Protestants are strident and unkind in their efforts to win Catholics to Christ! ‘Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one,’ said Paul (Colossians 4:6a). How often our apologetic has been ‘salty’ in an unsanctified sense!
The Appeal of Love
I believe that my neighbour, the Catholic, needs Christian love. It was by their love that I recognized the true followers of Jesus Christ. I had long since left the Catholic Church and embraced secular, godless philosophy. Existentialism and nihilism, even at the age of seventeen, seemed to capture and articulate the pathos and meaninglessness of life.
Nonetheless, in a fashion true to the words of Paul in Romans 1:18f, I was actually suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. I knew that there was a God. I had learned from the Catholic Church that he was a righteous God and a God who judges. And so, whilst professing in the daylight to subscribe to an atheistic position, in the night watches I fumbled with my beads and prayed the rosary in the hopes that what I had been told so many years ago was actually true – praying the rosary every night will save you. (I hoped that God would overlook the nights that I failed to say my ‘Hail Marys’) It was at this point, in the midst of confused ignorance and wicked rebellion, that the love of Christian young people touched my life.
Gracious witness, deeds of kindness, genuine interest, guileless love – these virtues manifested by Christian young people were used of God to woo my soul to the Lord Jesus Christ. I had often leaned hard upon the kindness of others, but had never encountered the love of Jesus flowing through his people. It seemed otherworldly to me – and indeed such love is not natural. I think I saw Jesus Christ first in the faces of those young people. Whatever I say to my Catholic neighbour, I want it to be accompanied by deeds of kindness. When I raise the issues of authority (the Bible alone) and of salvation (by faith alone) I want them to have no doubt that I love them. When I speak the gospel to them I want my actions to speak just as loudly, telling them that they are loved of God and loved by his people. I want them to see the Lord’s face in mine.
The Appeal of Works
It was like coming home. It was an arduous journey ended. It was a sweet pillow upon which to rest your head. Indeed it was rest. By grace I had found rest. All those years there had been no rest, and now I had been found of him and in him had found rest. What blessed words: ‘Come to Me, and I will give you rest.’
Now, to be sure, salvation by works has a tremendous appeal to the unbelieving mind. The Catholic system had a tremendous appeal to me. In fact, salvation by works has universal appeal. There is something of the Pharisee in all of us, and too little of the publican (Luke 18:9-14). So many pay lip service to grace and then seek life by works. This is the way of the Pharisee and that way is alive and well in the Catholic church. But it had an appeal to me. It left my pride intact (I could, after all, earn salvation), my social life untouched (midnight mass is kind to your agenda), and my sinful tendencies unhindered (the confessional was always there to deal with consequent guilt). But of true rest there was nothing.
Works is a cruel taskmaster and the works treadmill leads to despair and disillusionment. It was then that those blessed words touched my ears: ‘Come to Me, and I will give you rest.’ Salvation was not to be based on the filthy rags of my own perceived righteousness. The righteousness of God in Jesus Christ was my only hope. Faith in God and in Jesus Christ was the only way. And then, as with Luther, it was as if paradise opened up. And indeed it had.
Yet even now, as a citizen of a heavenly kingdom, I recall the days when I knew by experience that there was no peace for the wicked, that there was no rest in the round of activities prescribed by Rome, that there was deep within a longing for a different, a better way.
What a privilege to point my Catholic neighbour in the direction of the One who is that Way.
The Loss of Awe
It had been a long while since I had been in any Catholic church. The day of the funeral found our family seated within the hushed confines of the one near our home. While there was much that was distressing to the heart of a child of God, there was also something striking.
What was distressing was the sheer folly of it all. Certainty was expressed that the deceased was in heaven. The certainty was based on baptism, the good works he had done, his involvement in the Catholic Church, and the grace of God. At the end of the day the only thing that really mattered was that the way of salvation espoused and encouraged was not the way of Jesus. And we wept over that.
But what was striking was the ritual, the solemnity, the sobriety, the sense that we were in the presence of Someone wholly ‘other’ than ourselves. It was striking because that sense is only a distant memory for most evangelicals, and many feel well rid of it. Many are rushing headlong to embrace a full-filled, non-threatening, cheery and up-beat approach to worship.
God forbid that we should feel small and dirty. God forbid that he should come across as ‘no tame lion.’ God forbid that we should feel any fear and sense of humiliation. The awesome and majestic Jesus before whom John fell down like a dead man has been ushered out of churches in favour of a deity with whom we can enjoy a fireside chat! So it was striking to sit in the Catholic Church. While it is true that some Catholic churches are adopting the evangelical prescription for success, in this particular parish there was still a sense of solemnity. I remembered the days when I sat in a similar building trying to work my way to heaven. I remembered the hush that came over us when we considered what it was we were about, and who it was we were approaching. God was awesome and exalted. We knew nothing of, ‘Father’, but we knew, at least, that he was in heaven and that it behoved us to treat him accordingly. I remembered that even in my ignorance I felt I was in the presence of the Holy One, and it made me long for days when evangelicals would flee from the Ringling Brothers approach to church and remember that we worship our ‘Father who is in heaven!’
I believe my Catholic neighbour is struck by the loss of awe in evangelical churches, and is left unimpressed. Furthermore, some professing evangelicals are unimpressed as well and find themselves strangely attracted by Roman ritual. May God give us grace to honour him and attract others by worship that is marked by reverence and rejoicing.
Let the words of Watts be sung and experienced: ‘Before Jehovah’s awful throne, ye nations bow with sacred joy!’
Carl Muller is a Baptist pastor in Ontario.
Presuming that one is saved is ... perhaps sinful.
Pride is a sin.
We are weak vessels, and easily deceived, even with gross physical means like chemicals. Mushrooms and LSD can lead to misleading “religious” convictions. So can obsessive contemplation of ones spiritual state. There are many forms of madness and eccentricity.
The proper approach is a humble doubt in our spiritual state.
They were born again and Spirit-filled. It is sad that you guys are taking it worse than our friends did. They laughed, we laughed and agreed that yeah maybe Catholics do more know more about the Bible than we are generally given credit for.
Yes.
Yes. But the issues addressed were theological & structural ones.
Allow me to summarize the article from what I saw...Let me first say what the article commended about Catholics and Catholicism:
1. It said that it's NOT "a demonic institution."
2. It said Catholics were "people who were very, very nice."
3. Catholics were "very kind" to this pastor when his elder sister died.
4. "When I was an unmannerly and disobedient brat at school the Mother Superior attempted to discipline me and show me a better way."
5. "When my family arrived in a new and strange land (California), the nuns befriended us, fed us, connected us with others who could help us, invited us to a New Years Day dinner, and in the cosy confines of the convent introduced our family to the unsettling phenomenon of North American football."
6. "A Catholic family provided us with a house and more tokens of kindness than I could possibly relate."
7. "Catholics have touched my life in ways that I shall never forget and shall always appreciate.'
8. "...it is so sad when Protestants are strident and unkind in their efforts to win Catholics to Christ! ‘Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one,’ said Paul (Colossians 4:6a). How often our apologetic has been ‘salty’ in an unsanctified sense!"
9. "The Appeal of Love I believe that my neighbour, the Catholic, needs Christian love. It was by their love that I recognized the true followers of Jesus Christ."
10. "I knew that there was a God. I had learned from the Catholic Church that he was a righteous God and a God who judges."
11. "Whatever I say to my Catholic neighbour, I want it to be accompanied by deeds of kindness."
12. "...I want them to have no doubt that I love them. When I speak the gospel to them I want my actions to speak just as loudly, telling them that they are loved of God and loved by his people. I want them to see the Lord’s face in mine."
13. He comments quite positively on Catholic "solemnity, the sobriety, the sense that we were in the presence of Someone wholly ‘other’ than ourselves. It was striking because that sense is only a distant memory for most evangelicals, and many feel well rid of it. Many are rushing headlong to embrace a full-filled, non-threatening, cheery and up-beat approach to worship. rbid that we should feel any fear and sense of humiliation...it was striking to sit in the Catholic Church. While it is true that some Catholic churches are adopting the evangelical prescription for success, in this particular parish there was still a sense of solemnity. I felt I was in the presence of the Holy One, and it made me long for days when evangelicals would flee from the Ringling Brothers approach to church and remember that we worship our ‘Father who is in heaven!’ I believe my Catholic neighbour is struck by the loss of awe in evangelical churches, and is left unimpressed."
The theological "attacks" focused on:
a. ..."a system and in the grip of a religion that is so far from true Biblical Christianity."
b. issues of authority (the Bible alone) and of salvation (by faith alone) & grace vs. works-righteousness & the pride & even Pharisaical legalism that tends to accompany it.
c. his background of saying "hail mary's" and rosary ritualism
d. "...I recall the days when I knew by experience that there was no peace for the wicked, that there was no rest in the round of activities prescribed by Rome, that there was deep within a longing for a different, a better way.
You said: Don’t think the attacked parties should respond as they see it?
Indeed, respond...
But did you address a, b, c, d above in your response? (I didn't see it)
Instead, the grounds of your response proved to be the exact same thing you accused others of doing:
You attacked the...
...stewardship of others' time...
...inward motivation -- as if we know what that is for others ("insecurity of faith" is the way you implied it)
...comments as being "demonically" sourced...when here the author said that the Catholic institution is NOT demonic...IoW, you escalated it all...
...direction of even challenging other Christians' systems' beliefs at all -- and if you don't believe other Christians are to be challenge other Christians, then why were you doing that?
It's almost like saying you don't believe in revenge, but then proceed on to a vengeful reaction.
A former Catholic expresses concern about your eternal destiny and you take that as an attack?
Sure. How would you look at it if some Catholic or other Christian told you that you need to change your faith to be like his? I’m very happy with my Catholic faith - always have been. I have never seen any need to tell you or anyone else to follow my lead.
I’m really tired of the Catholic-bashers that seem to proliferate at each full moon. It’s annoying and more than slightly mental.
Well, I’m amazed. You have expended untold hours scribbling away in a pointless effort to win me over to your point of view.
The real effect of which is to make me - and any other normal person edge away from you and whatever beliefs you associate yourself with.
If you feel that you have the need to change somebody’s beliefs, buy yourself a ticket to Syria or Iraq or Libya and have at it.
Not really...an hour at best...
...a pointless effort to win me over to your point of view.
No real intent in that direction (I would have focused on other areas if that had been the case)
My real intent was to hold up a mirror so you could see yourself...and how you behaved in the exact same way as those you accused. (I can't force people to look in the mirror)
I don't try to "make people receptive" to anything I write; but hey, if I can get a poster to at least either stop or review their attacking other posters on exactly the same grounds they accuse others of engaging in, then none of what I wrote was ultimately "pointless."
The real effect of which is to make me - ... edge away from you and whatever beliefs you associate yourself with.
You know, you're not in some middle-ground camp. Either you're in Christ...and if so, why would I even need to lure you to any of my beliefs? If you're not in Christ, then I can't push you any further away...so stop with this "middle ground" "edge away" nonsense.
If you feel that you have the need to change somebody’s beliefs, buy yourself a ticket to Syria or Iraq or Libya and have at it.
All marketers are trying to change people's mindsets...(you not only don't tell them to head off to the Middle East, but you buy their products...en masse, too!)
And you wouldn't have posted what you said in post #21 unless you thought somebody might buy into at least some of it...otherwise, why bother posting at all?
So, again take your own advice & plan a certain vacation destination...if you ever decide to be consistent in your application of your standards, that is.
(God forbid we might actually have Christian models in this world! No wonder kids have so few spiritual mentors in this world! So many people abdicating being responsible Christians in whatever sphere of influence they operate...perhaps out of some ill-based fear that somebody think they are attempting to spiritually clone others)
No, it’s probably not nice. But it depends on my antagonist’s level of commitment. Whacking away at a fellow conservative’s Catholicism is really easy but pointless.
They want to spread the Gospel to the people that really need it, the Middle East is risky but a much higher commitment.
More self-refuting rhetoric.
If it's bad to "bash" people of other faiths or sects, then that also includes labeling somebody else as a "basher."
To call people "bashers" is to negatively reference them;
may or may not be accurate because "bash" is rooted in a physically violent root basis;
and is essentially itself an act of bashing other religionists...which is what you were scorning and wagging your finger as a "no-no" to begin with...
If you don't want others to "bash," lead by example:
Don't negatively reference them...
You miss the point completely, so I’ll write in clearer terms. My faith is excellent. My children are well-schooled, reverent and spiritual.
I have zero need or patience for screeds of ill-disguised hatred from others claiming to be Christians attacking other Christians.
I made the mistake years ago of attending a Protestant buddy’s services in a sort of attempt at understanding his view of faith. Somewhere in the middle of his preacher’s mind-numbing 45 minute sermon, that preacher launched into a nasty attack against Catholic beliefs. I stood up and asked that preacher why he found it necessary to say things like that about my church. He mumbled something about “how I needed to be saved..”.
I am saved just fine - and I have little or no patience for small- minded bigots using Christianity as a cudgel against others. That isn’t Christianity, that’s the devil in close proximity.
Sure. Sorry, Bud - but when someone comes out with tripe about something you hold dear, you respond.
Expect it,
One person’s opinion only.
I have done more to spread the Gospel than you have, I’ll bet.
I spent a couple of years in Israel, Egypt, in the Former Soviet Union and A couple of priests and I have made many conversions to date.
That’s where the rubber meets the road, Bud - not typing nonsense here at home to antagonize other Christians.
Well, I genuinely praise God for that.
And I don't cite the following verse aimed at you; it's a reminder to me to leave any accomplishments I've done on my resume':
"We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise." (Apostle Paul, 2 Corinthians 10:12)
...not typing nonsense here at home to antagonize other Christians.
If Jesus would have had a keyboard & computer network, I'm sure a few John 8 & Matthew 23 type of comments would have come across as "antagonizing" other Jews.
And if you are indeed so "anti-antagonizing" of other Christians, then please explain why you twice referenced in post #21 that the thread itself (or comments) was "the work of the devil?"
Isn't engaging in escalating religious antagonism part of the problem you cite of Christians antagonizing others?
If that's a problem you identify, why are you contributing to it and even escalating it?
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