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Hermas – a primary eyewitness source regarding the leadership structure of early church at Rome
Beggars All ^
| October 05, 2010
| John Bugay
Posted on 02/15/2015 10:17:53 AM PST by RnMomof7
Hermas a primary eyewitness source regarding the leadership structure of early church at Rome
Paul writes to the church at Rome without addressing a leader. He writes in the years 57-58, a date that is very firm in history, in a letter that is not contested. Excuses are made as to why there is no mention of Peter in Rome, even though the church has been attested in Rome perhaps from Acts 2, when visitors for Rome were present at/saved at Pentecost. In Acts 18, Aquila and Priscilla are expelled from Rome by the edict of Claudius, attested in secular history, 49 ad.
So the church at Rome is attested long before Paul writes and there is no leader there.
Ignatius, who knows and writes about Bishops in the east, writes to Rome without mentioning a Bishop. There is no question the city of Rome is important. It is the capital of the empire. This church which presides in the place of the district of the Romans
Shepherd of Hermas: According to the Muratorian Canon, the oldest (ca. AD-180-200?) known list of the New Testament and early Christian writings, Hermas was the brother of Pius, bishop of Rome (ca 140-154). So he was writing earlier than Hegesippus, whose list of bishops is said to be the first one (c. 166), and earlier than Irenaeus (c.180). Hermas was, in fact, listed in the Muratorian Canon as a book to be read in the churches [i.e., it was liturgical].
As I slept, brothers and sisters, a revelation was given to me by a very handsome young man, who said to me, Who do you think the elderly woman from whom you received the little book was? I said The Sibyl. You are wrong, he said. She is not. Then who is she? I said. The church, he replied. I said to him, why then is she elderly? Because, he said, she was created before all things; therefore she is elderly, and for her sake the world was formed.
Afterwards I saw a vision in my house. The elderly woman came and asked me if I had already given the little book to the elders (presbuteroi, plural). I said that I had not given it. You have done well, she said, for I have words to add. So when I finish all the words they will be made known to all the elect through you. Therefore you will write two little books, and you will send one to Clement and one to Grapte. Then Clement will send it to the cities abroad, because that is his job. But Grapte will instruct the widows and orphans. But you yourself will read it to this city [Rome], along with the elders (presbuteroi) who preside (proistamenoi plural leadership) over the church." (Vis 2.4)
Roger Collins, Keepers of the Keys of Heaven: A History of the Papacy, (New York: Basic Books, 2008), notes The author of the Epistle of Clement may have been the man of this name later described as the person responsible for drafting communications sent behalf of Christians of Rome to other churches. If this Clement did compose 1 Clement, then it certainly would be understandable why the Corinthian church would have thought they received a letter from Clement (even though the name of Clement does not appear within that letter. Rather, it is from the church of God that sojourns in Rome).
But Hermas could not be more clear. There is a plurality of presbyters who preside over the church at Rome. This is no fuzzy mention, as in Ignatius, of a church in a place of honor. This is a clear explanation for the argument from silence in Pauls letter to the Romans, in the absence of a clear leader in both 1 Clement and Ignatius.
Hermas reiterates the structure of this leadership, and the fact that they are not leading, but rather that they fight among themselves. He calls them children.
Look therefore to the coming judgment. You, therefore, who have more than enough, seek out those who are hungry, until the tower is finished. For after the tower is finished, you may want to do good, but you will not have the chance. Beware, therefore, you who exult in your wealth, lest those in need groan, and their groaning rise up to the Lord, and you together with your good things be shut outside the door of the tower. Now, therefore, I say to you [tois plural] who lead the church and occupy the seats of honor: do not be like the sorcerers. For the sorcerers carry their drugs in bottles, but you carry your drug and poison in your heart. You are calloused and do not want to cleanse your hearts and to mix your wisdom together in a clean heart, in order that you may have mercy from the great King. Watch out, therefore, children, lest these divisions of yours [among you elders] deprive you of your life. How is it that you desire to instruct Gods elect, while you yourselves have no instruction? Instruct one another, therefore, and have peace among yourselves, in order that I too may stand joyfully before the Father and give an account on behalf of all of you to your Lord. (Vis 3.9)
Hermas here is chastising the multiple leaders of the church at Rome. This is important to note because Hermas identifies himself as a slave (Vis. 1.1). It will not do to say that this is a group of priests who work for a bishop. The entire group "presides."
Yet here, in the leadership of the church of Rome, there are multiple elders who "preside"; they are acting like sorcerers. They exult in their wealth. They take the seats of honor. They want to teach, but they are guilty themselves of having no instruction.
This is very clear writing. Very clear reporting of what the church was like. For those of you who want to understand what the leadership structure of the church at Rome was like, it is hard to find a better primary source witness than Hermas. [Please pay no attention to the fact that there are many scholars whose work corroborates what Hermas says here. This is a post about primary sources.]
TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: catholicism; history; papacy; protvsrc
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1
posted on
02/15/2015 10:17:53 AM PST
by
RnMomof7
To: Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; HossB86; Iscool; ...
2
posted on
02/15/2015 10:18:41 AM PST
by
RnMomof7
To: RnMomof7
[excerpt]
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity. Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.
....
http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html
3
posted on
02/15/2015 10:29:51 AM PST
by
Mechanicos
(Nothing's so small it can't be blown out of proportion.)
To: RnMomof7
Another great article RnMomof7! It’s so sad to see the number of people that have fallen for the falsehoods of Catholicism.
4
posted on
02/15/2015 10:52:08 AM PST
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: RnMomof7
5
posted on
02/15/2015 10:56:54 AM PST
by
WriteOn
(Truth)
To: RnMomof7
Almost all “Protestants” practice a papacy that’s as bad or worse than Rome’s.......only their pope is local and called “The Pastor”.
Few and rare are the assemblies that have practiced the reality of the Lord Jesus as the true head of the church, and have a plurality of “co-equal” (only in authority) elders who truly preside under Jesus headship, in submission to one another and to all the church.
This was so clearly the early church practice for many years, as this record attests.
Interesting that in all of the NT, the very word “pastor” (singular) is never found except in reference to the Lord Jesus, and only occurs ONCE (Eph. 4:11) in all the NT when referring to leadership/ministry in the local assembly, when it is PLURAL. Elders are however throughout the NT, and always plural, and clearly given the authority to govern.
There were no pastors mentioned in Jerusalem, Antioch (see Acts 13:1), and any other church; no letter is ever written to a pastor, and no man is ever called a pastor in all the NT. It is never a title used by any man - except in man’s religious systems.
Yet, those who claim they adhere to no doctrine or teaching that is not solidly presented in scripture so steadfastly and universally practiced and defended to one that is no where to be found, except in “going beyond what is written” trying to claim that James was “the pastor” of the church in Jerusalem, etc. A method of interpreting scripture they would be aghast at if applied to any other truth.
Flame away - my asbestos suit is on.
PS: true church history records that there have been groups from the first century until now who have lived and practiced the reality of the practical headship of Christ, and plurality of leaders under His headship. The Brethren of the mid 19th century are just one example.
PSS: a plurality of men serving together under his headship is a divine and miraculous event, impossible to man - all of man’s works, both in the world and in what is called the church must be headed by a man, a CEO, or they fail. The “success” of today’s “churches” is all dependent on having a man at the head who is able to draw and keep others as followers - as Paul described in Acts 20:29, 30.
6
posted on
02/15/2015 11:10:37 AM PST
by
Arlis
To: RnMomof7
The most Paul said about peter was unfavorable and the only thing he said favorable of any of the apostles was that James, Cephas and John seemed to be pillars of the faith Galatians 2:9.
And even in mentioning those apostles his subject was about his gospel and not theirs.
Although Peter said favorable words about Paul in 2 Peter 3:15
Paul said nothing favorable about Peter.
All we have is big question marks.????????
7
posted on
02/15/2015 11:22:43 AM PST
by
ravenwolf
(s letters scripture.)
To: RnMomof7
Good article. Thanks for posting.
8
posted on
02/15/2015 11:25:40 AM PST
by
Springfield Reformer
(Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
To: Arlis
Almost all Protestants practice a papacy thats as bad or worse than Romes.......only their pope is local and called The Pastor.Oh, this should be good....
9
posted on
02/15/2015 11:44:11 AM PST
by
Alex Murphy
("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
To: RnMomof7
As I slept, brothers and sisters, a revelation was given to me by a very handsome young man, who said to me...
10
posted on
02/15/2015 11:44:26 AM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: RnMomof7
Kudos !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11
posted on
02/15/2015 11:59:47 AM PST
by
Uri’el-2012
(Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
To: Arlis; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; HossB86; ...
Almost all Protestants practice a papacy thats as bad or worse than Romes.......only their pope is local and called The Pastor.have you ever noticed that most Protestants carry their Bibles into church ?That is because we want to check what the scripture says against what we are being told..
How do you check what the pope says to see if it is true?
12
posted on
02/15/2015 12:12:23 PM PST
by
RnMomof7
To: Arlis
You are correct on all counts. Christ taught against giving titles among the disciples. He specifically mentioned “father”, but “pastor” is just a different word being used the same way. Apostle is also not a title. It is a job description. Christ taught against following the world’s way of doing things when He said, “so shall it not be among you”.
13
posted on
02/15/2015 12:42:40 PM PST
by
unlearner
(You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
To: Arlis; RnMomof7
>>Interesting that in all of the NT, the very word pastor (singular) is never found except in reference to the Lord Jesus, and only occurs ONCE (Eph. 4:11) in all the NT when referring to leadership/ministry in the local assembly,<<
Catholics should really refrain from commenting on scripture. The word translated there as pastors is the Greek word that means Sheppard and is used 8 times in the New Testament. It refers to someone who "feeds the sheep" and cares for them. And guess what Arlis. Want to know where we get the word pastor from that? Why it's in the Catholic Churches own LATIN
4166 Greek - poimḗn properly, a shepherd ("pastor" in Latin)
You see Arlis. Comments about scripture should be left to those who actually study scripture. So regardless of all your snarky remarks the word "pastor" was from YOUR CHURCH and it's Latin origins. Perhaps you should send them your snarky remarks?
14
posted on
02/15/2015 12:43:50 PM PST
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: Alex Murphy
Here is why Catholics should really not be commenting on scripture until they do more study.
15
posted on
02/15/2015 12:47:39 PM PST
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: RnMomof7
How do you check what the pope says to see if it is true? I don't know about others but I don't check it. It would be a waste of time.
16
posted on
02/15/2015 1:04:37 PM PST
by
ex-snook
(God forgives because God is Love)
To: Arlis
Almost all Protestants practice a papacy thats as bad or worse than Romes.......only their pope is local and called The Pastor.That is 110% wrong. Pastors are nothing like Popes. Nobody consider a pastor unfallible, and nobody thinks pastors are a higher religious authority. Pastors are more like teachers or messengers. They are not "fathers" because we call no man father but he who is in heaven and dear old dad of course.
17
posted on
02/15/2015 1:15:14 PM PST
by
GeronL
To: RnMomof7
LUTHERANS??, PRESBYTERIANS??,AMISH??,METHODISTS??,CONGREGATIONALISTS??,ANGLICANS??,MENNONITES??,CALVANISTS??,EPISCOPALIANS??,SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS??.....if not Catholics, what were the members of a Christian church in Rome??????All the Christians on Earth were Catholic.....PERIOD
18
posted on
02/15/2015 1:20:08 PM PST
by
terycarl
(common sense prevails over all)
To: ex-snook
How do you check what the pope says to see if it is true? I don't know about others but I don't check it. It would be a waste of time. I agree, why would you check the validity of the word of faith from a man who God promised would be infallible in such matters?????waste of time...
19
posted on
02/15/2015 1:25:42 PM PST
by
terycarl
(common sense prevails over all)
To: CynicalBear
.....Or a good Bible commentary.
20
posted on
02/15/2015 1:31:18 PM PST
by
Biggirl
(2014 MIdterms Were BOTH A Giant Wave And Restraining Order)
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