[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Catholics just can’t get past the following man thing, can they?

Jesus has a human nature as well as a divine nature, so in a sense, you're right.

But why do Protestants follow Luther and the doctrine that he invented 1400 years after Christ, his doctrine of Sola Scriptura?

The doctrine doesn't appear in the Bible, which one would expect. There isn't even a hint of it. In fact, there's no mention of the Bible ALONE as being the SOLE or ULTIMATE rule of faith, anywhere in Christian history, prior to Luther.

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"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant." --Cardinal Newman

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But the papacy is mentioned by the early Church Fathers, the succession of popes can be traced back to Peter, and the Bible indicates that Peter held the office of the vice-regent of the eternal, redeemed House of David, i.e., Peter held the office of the representative of the King of the eternal, redeemed House of David, Jesus.

The Bible tells us that Jesus is the King of the eternal House of David:

"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David." (Luke 1:32)

In the ancient Davidic kingdom, the authority of the palace majordomo, or vice-regent, was represented by an over-sized key that the vice-regent would wear around his neck. The vice-regent held plenary authority in the king's absence.

"I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open." (Isaiah 22:22)

As King of the eternal, redeemed Davidic Kingdom, Jesus holds the "key of David," which he may bestow on His representative or vice-regent.

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. (Rev. 3:7)

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:19)

Was Peter's office transferred? History tells us that it was, and so does the Bible, as Isaiah 22 shows the succession in office of vice-regents of the Davidic kingdom.

Unfortunately, Protestants generally ignore this plain biblical evidence for the papacy, reading the Bible through the human traditions of Luther and his disciples.

[Elsie]

The doctrine doesn't appear in the Bible, which one would expect.

NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."

 

NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

[Elsie]

There isn't even a hint of it.

 

 

 

 

Luke 16:19-31            Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

¹⁹ There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day.

²⁰ And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,

²¹ Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores.

²² And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.

²³ And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:

²⁴ And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

²⁵ And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

²⁶ And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.

²⁷ And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren,

²⁸ That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.

²⁹ And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

³⁰ But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

³¹ And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

[Elsie]

Unfortunately, Protestants generally ignore this plain biblical evidence for the papacy,

What's so unfortunate about rejecting the Calvinosaurus of Catholicism?

Doctrine that was concocted from a bit here, a snippet there, an inference over yonder...

[metmom]

But why do Protestants follow Luther and the doctrine that he invented 1400 years after Christ, his doctrine of Sola Scriptura?

Why don't you ask some Protestants who follow Luther?

I don't know any that do. We follow Christ, not man.

That Luther came to the same conclusions about sola Scriptura as we do is irrelevant. All that means is that that's what Scripture teaches if people that far apart in time and space come to the same conclusions using the Bible.

It's a complete fallacy that having a church determine doctrine is better than Scripture determining doctrine. All that ends up happening is the people then disagree about the CCC instead of Scripture. It does NOTHING to stop varying interpretations because the CCC then needs to be interpreted and what body of the Catholic church has poasted an infallible interpretation of the CCC?

"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."

To be deep in Scripture is to cease to be Catholic.

[metmom]

Was Peter's office transferred? History tells us that it was, and so does the Bible, as Isaiah 22 shows the succession in office of vice-regents of the Davidic kingdom.

Scripture doesn't tell us and grabbing some example of something similar out of the OT does not prove a thing.

[metmom]

Unfortunately, Protestants generally ignore this plain biblical evidence for the papacy, reading the Bible through the human traditions of Luther and his disciples.

Again, Catholics have been so indoctrinated into following a human leader, that it is simply beyond the comprehension of any Catholics I have ever conversed with that others do not do the same thing, that we don't follow Luther or Calvin or whoever.

RC's have been told time and again that Christians follow Christ and no one else, and yet RC's trot out the same old tired canard as if it were an original idea.

[xone]

But why do Protestants follow Luther and the doctrine that he invented

First off, all 'protestants' aren't the same. All Lutherans aren't. Some have abandoned the Confessional Lutheranism of the Book of Concord. However, none of them 'follow Luther'. We follow Christ. As for the sole authority of Scripture, do you agree it is God's Word? If so, when a conflict arises, how can your manmade doctrine supersede God's Word? If you don't consider it God's Word, then we have an entirely different problem.

[Kandy Atz]

>>>>Unfortunately, Protestants generally ignore this plain biblical evidence for the papacy, reading the Bible through the human traditions of Luther and his disciples.<<<<

Its not so much ignoring, its rightly dividing God’s Word. Believers are neither Jews or Gentiles, but one Body of Christ with Jesus as the Head, and only Head. We are children of God, not servants, and joint heirs with Jesus.

The Church did not replace Israel. And there is no religious monarchy in the Body of Christ.

Peter’s “keys” were to the Kingdom of Heaven. I highly recommend a careful study of what that term means. It has nothing to do with the Body of Christ. The KOH has one Eternal King, it is a physical kingdom centered on Israel and exclusive in nature.

You cannot apply OT prophecies concerning Israel to the Body of Christ. Israel is God’s called out nation. Likewise, don’t rob Jesus of his Kingdom, even if it is presently in abeyance. What is the primary purpose of Matthew’s Gospel? It was to announce that the promised King and Kingdom had come to ISRAEL. Starting in verse 1 - the son of David - his right to the throne. Then wise men came seeking the King of the Jews. What did John the Baptist preach just before Jesus began his ministry - Matthew 3:2- Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. After the temptation, what were his first ministerial Words - Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. See a theme developing?

You don’t formulate a doctrine and then attempt to locate Biblical support. Go to God’s Word and see what He says about the Kingdom of Heaven, and THE KING. Neither have anything to do with the Church of this Age, where we are one Body, with Jesus as the Head. The Kingdom of Heaven was/is/and will be always for Israel. The KOH was prophesied in the OT, and announced by the angels and John the Baptist at the start of the NT. Jesus preached it until he was rejected and crucified. The Kingdom was offered again in Acts, and again Israel rejected it. It is now postponed until the 2nd Advent. The Kingdom Parables are helpful, especially the Parable of the Pounds in Luke 19 and the marriage feast in Matthew 22. Be very careful attempting to apply any of these to the Church - Believers are children of God, not servants. The same goes for all the prophecies related to the Kingdom of Heaven found in the OT. Don’t rob Israel of her special prophetic place as God’s called out nation.

After Israel rejected their King, the Mystery, hidden in God, was revealed by Paul - God is creating a called out body made up of neither Jews or Gentiles, but one Body of Christ, a perfect man. There is no King in the Body, only a Head (and there is only one HEAD - Jesus), and a Heavenly Father. There is no religious monarchy in the current Age of Grace because their is no physical kingdom on Earth in this Age, only a spiritual Kingdom of God which is over all, including the coming Kingdom of Heaven which will be Jewish and exclusive in its character, fulfilling all the OT & NT prophecies and types for Israel. There is, and will be, only one King of the KOH.

Since you are interested in OT Scripture, prayerfully receive 1 Samuel 8. As you read the chapter, consider the new relation God has given Believers as children of God. Note verse 7 & 8. How might this be relevant in this present age where many prefer religion, or religious leaders, over a personal relationship with the Father.

What’s so very interesting to me is, even though God KNEW the dangers of an earthly king, telling them specifically what WOULD happen, they still wanted one. And God, because of His great Love for His people, and the authority He delegated to man, allowed their request. There is so much Liberty in LOVE.

1 Samuel 8:4-9 (KJV)
4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.