Cadston mormon temple
Posted on 01/29/2015 4:52:10 PM PST by Colofornian
“It is oppressive to live in the city of St. George as a non-Mormon,” St. George City Council applicant Tara Dunn announced to a crowd comprised of some of Southern Utah’s most influential people, many of whom are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Her words seemed to hang in the air on Jan. 23 during the brief but tense pause that followed her speech in the St. George City Council chambers. Many were shocked to hear such strongly worded criticism of Latter-day Saint culture. Some were offended at what they felt was an attack on the LDS faith itself.
“I thought it was repulsive,” said St. George City Councilman Gil Almquist, who also serves as the president of a local LDS stake. “I felt very misunderstood that night,” he added.
Others have said they felt inspired by Dunn’s words. “Her speech made people uncomfortable,” said Dorothy Engelman, chair of the Washington County Democratic party. “Oftentimes we are uncomfortable hearing things that we know are true but are unwilling or afraid to say ourselves.”
“Yes, I do think non-Mormons sometimes face discrimination,” she added. “I think that there are several groups that face discrimination in Southern Utah, non-Mormons being one of them.”
Some members of the LDS church have said they actually agreed with much of what Dunn said in her speech.
“I think there’s truth to what she’s saying,” said Bryan Hyde, host of the popular political talk show “Perspectives” on FOX 1450 AM. “Particularly this sense of people feeling disenfranchised and not fitting in because they are not LDS. I think that’s a legitimate concern.”
However, Hyde said he thinks Dunn’s confrontational tone may have detracted from her message.
“I think it was a missed opportunity for her,” he said, “She has done some remarkable things and I think she has made some tremendous gains in gaining the trust of voters. The tone she took actually harmed the message she was trying to get out.”
“We (non-Mormons) have never had any form of meaningful representation,” Dunn said in her speech, “and, worse, it has become somewhat of an unspoken culture that we accept that we are second-class citizens in silence. Today and right now, I break that silence.”
Dunn said she expected to be condemned by some for her words, but she felt someone needed to say it.
“When you make people operate in these confines, you know who you hurt? You hurt the victims of domestic violence, you hurt the rape victims, you hurt the children, you hurt the disabled, you hurt the elderly, you hurt the little guys,” she said in an interview after delivering the speech. “That’s who you hurt when you don’t call people out on this culture of ‘no one say anything.’ That kind of culture is enabling of all kinds of horrible things.”
“You don’t hurt me,” she added. “I’m strong. I can take it, I’m strong.”
Dunn has been a controversial figure in St. George city politics since 2011, when she first ran for a position on the St. George City Council. In both the 2011 and 2013 races, Dunn waged campaigns that were overtly critical of the current city government, which she says is rife with self-dealing and cronyism. While some have criticized her campaign style for being too negative for Southern Utah, Dunn came very close to winning in both races.
Dunn delivered the speech in question on Thursday evening last week at the city council chambers. She was one of 24 applicants for Mayor Jon Pike’s recently vacated council seat. Each of the applicants was permitted to address the council, mayor and audience members before a vote was taken by the council to fill Pike’s seat. Dunn’s three-minute address has been seen by some as a death knell for her political aspirations in Southern Utah. David DeMille, a local journalist for the St. George Spectrum, described the speech in a tweet from city hall as Dunn, “going out, guns a-blazin,” like an outlaw gunfighter.
Now that the dust has had a chance to settle on Facebook and in the comment threads regarding Dunn’s controversial remarks, the question remains: Is there any truth to what she said on Thursday? Is there a penalty to pay for not being a member of the LDS Church in Southern Utah? If there is, why is it so and to what degree? Can the atmosphere in St. George really be described as oppressive for non-Mormons?
“Ms. Dunn is correct that non-Mormons in Southern Utah are treated as second-class citizens,” said Lori McArthur Cottam, who says her pioneer heritage goes back to Daniel D. McArthur, one of the early Mormon settlers of the Salt Lake Valley in 1848 and one of the original pioneers who founded St. George in 1861. As an ex-Mormon whose husband and children are practicing members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Cottam said she believes she has a unique perspective on the cultural tension between members and non-members – and she said she doesn’t believe Mormons intend to discriminate against or alienate anybody.
“They just don’t think about it,” she said. “It’s part of their culture – it’s the way they were raised.” Cottam added that many of the things about LDS culture that non-members find offensive or off-putting are done in a spirit of kindness and compassion.
“In fact,” she said, “their religion teaches that the only way to be a true friend is to help everyone find a happiness that only the true church can bring. They feel that if they don’t convert us, they will have failed us. That surely breeds an us-versus-them mentality.”
In yet another dimension of this debate, many Mormons and non-Mormons who heard Dunn’s speech have said they can’t relate to what she described. One commenter on The Independent’s website, self-identified as a non-Mormon, said they cannot relate to Dunn’s portrayal. “Folks know I’m not Mormon and they’re always there to help and offer a kind word,” the commenter said.
Gil Almquist said he’s never heard of non-Mormons being discriminated against. “I can only speak for myself and everyone that I know and emphatically state that, no, that does not exist,” he said.
Almquist said he, too, has a unique perspective on this issue. “I haven’t always been LDS,” he said. “I see people in a different light, maybe, than some who have been in the church their entire life.”
“I have never made a decision, public or private, based on someone’s race, creed, color, gender, status in the community, or their religion,” he said. “It’s ridiculous to think that there is a question on a form that says, ‘What religion are you?’ Give me a break. It’s against the law.”
However, Bryan Hyde, who is a Mormon, said he is aware of instances of intolerance towards non-Mormons by members of his faith.
“You know, there are individuals who, for whatever reason, say ‘your kid can’t play with my kid,’” said Hyde. “Why not? ‘Well, because you’re not a member of our church.’ Those are pretty rare instances, but they do happen.”
“That probably does exist somewhere,” Almquist admitted, “but if somebody from the LDS church has offended somebody wrongfully, well, they’re not in good standing. They need to repent.”
However, Cottam said much of the discriminating behavior that occurs happens unconsciously.
“It’s important to realize that Mormons don’t do any of this on purpose,” she said. She offered an example of how she believes the church can sometimes unintentionally foster negative attitudes about non-members.
“At my daughter’s ward last month,” she said, “a speaker told 11- to 17-year-old girls that if they didn’t do it God’s way, they would end up so sad that they would commit suicide like the star of TV’s ‘Glee.’ These kinds of stories are not only wrong, but they teach these children to be deathly afraid of all things non-Mormon.”
Dorothy Engelman and Tara Dunn both spoke about small-business owners they know who have lost business when customers discovered they are not LDS. Dunn mentioned a realtor she knows who said many LDS people will not list their homes with non-LDS realtors.
“If your livelihood is dependent upon being accepted by folks of the LDS faith, and they are paying you for your services, then you have to be very careful where you step,” said Engelman.
Kevin Hansen, a local contractor who is a Mormon, said he believes Mormon people are, on average, more trustworthy than non-Mormons. He said he doesn’t see a big problem with favoring LDS people in business dealings.
“People who practice this faith and believe this religion are different,” he said. “We start from youth to believe in the Ten Commandments.” He went on to discuss the discipline and work ethics Latter-day Saint men and women learn on their missions.
“We freely put ourselves through that kind of scrutiny to be members in good standing,” he said. “If there’s a confessional in some other church – well, that’s totally voluntary. We confess once every two years as adults that are temple worthy.”
Hansen paused, however, when asked how overlooking non-Mormon businesses or job applicants was any different than shunning, for instance, Jewish businesses and employees because they do not recognize the divinity of Jesus.
“Well, I can see how other people could look at it that way,” he said.
Cottam repeatedly stressed that the vast majority of LDS people have the best of intentions, even when they are doing things that non-members find alienating.
Bryan Hyde said that in order for the gap to close between the cultural experiences of LDS and non-LDS folks, people need to try and be more open and accepting of those who make different choices and have different values than they do.
“The only thing that I can think of to make a difference is for both sides to move in the direction of those who they perceive as their cultural opponent,” he said.
“Instead of teaching our kids that, ‘Oh, that person has tattoos, they must be bad,’ maybe it’s OK if your kid says, ‘That’s a really cool tattoo.’ You can appreciate it and you still haven’t abandoned your values; instead, what you’ve done is shown some appreciation for somebody.”
Constructive communication can’t take place, he said, until people begin to understand where others are coming from – even if they don’t agree.
“Rather than fearing or resenting our neighbors for being different, maybe we ought to embrace them for it,” Hyde said. “This really is an amazing place and there is room enough to share it. I want the people who come here to feel welcome, and anything we can do to facilitate a dialogue, well, I’m all for that."
“It is oppressive to live in the city of St. George as a non-Mormon,” St. George City Council applicant Tara Dunn announced to a crowd comprised of some of Southern Utah’s most influential people, many of whom are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...Some members of the LDS church have said they actually agreed with much of what Dunn said in her speech. “I think there’s truth to what she’s saying,” said Bryan Hyde, host of the popular political talk show “Perspectives” on FOX 1450 AM. “Particularly this sense of people feeling disenfranchised and not fitting in because they are not LDS. I think that’s a legitimate concern.” ...Dorothy Engelman and Tara Dunn both spoke about small-business owners they know who have lost business when customers discovered they are not LDS. Dunn mentioned a realtor she knows who said many LDS people will not list their homes with non-LDS realtors. “If your livelihood is dependent upon being accepted by folks of the LDS faith, and they are paying you for your services, then you have to be very careful where you step,” said Engelman...Hansen paused, however, when asked how overlooking non-Mormon businesses or job applicants was any different than shunning, for instance, Jewish businesses and employees because they do not recognize the divinity of Jesus.
In light of the article links below -- published this week as well as last two going back to November 2009 --
-- seems like Mormons might be more focused advocacy-wise on how transgenders are treated in employment, housing and by extension, bathroom issues, than even the Mormon treatment of non-Mormons in general in parts of Utah!
* November 2009:Mormon church supports Salt Lake City's protections for gay rights
* November 2009: Mormons Back Salt Lake City Gay Rights Laws
Oh crap...for as long as I lived there (Utah) the Mo’s messed with me.
They see it as their state. They have a point. Whatever.
What was funny was the fact that it was mostly converts who act that way. And seein’ as how I’m related to half of Northern Utah since some of the earliest Mormons were my relatives - coming West on the Emigration with Young - I thought that was hilarious. They’re acting like I’m the newcomer?!
Piffle. The Mormons are always gonna promote their own feelings of victimhood. They still use it in their promo videos: Oh Poor Us, hunted and murdered in Nauvoo and Independence. Yeah well, when ya show up in town and try to make off with all the girls, whadja expect?!
The old time folks in rural Utah - and that means 1 mile outta town in St. George! - are all nice people.
Really? Mormons are out there picking on the elderly, disabled and rape victims? A bit over the top, IMHO.
I have never lived in Utah. But have known some non LDS who lived there.
They told me that outwardly the Mormon people are very friendly and courteous. But that they are also very aware of who is LDS and who is not. And they always want to know if you are Mormon or what religion you are.
Bottom line was that it was hard to get too close or be good friends with Mormons if you weren’t also Mormon. Again this is all second hand that I heard about this from people who had lived in mostly LDS towns in Utah.
I understand Salt Lake has large non LDS population so the social climate in that city may be very different than that of smaller towns or rural Utah.
She’s in desperate need of a campaign manager—perhaps Cottam who seems to bridge both cultures. This was not the way to kick off a winning campaign.
Oh, its true, they’re insular and clannish.
You have to remember those Mormon settlements have been there for 150 years. Downs syndrome is a big problem, or was 50 years ago. Everyone is related....
So its just like any other community. You be polite, dont step on toes, fit in as best you can and shop at all the local stores.
After a while they get used to you and vice versa. You don’t have to convert, a lot of them are Jack Mormons and get caught at the bars like everyone else. Most of these people are hard workin ruralists...farms, ranches, oil rigs, mines...they have a hard time walking the straight and narrow too.
SLC is about 50 50 Mix. The local politics all center on the divide; its an endless debate. Office politics are worse...how many times did I get beat on to go to family home evening (can I bring both my girlfriends??)...
State politics? The church dictates and the legislature salutes. Oh well...its their state. You just roll yer eyes and move forward...
“People who practice this faith and believe this religion are different,”
Wee, right there is an understatement for you. “Weird” is the word that I’d use.
Cadston mormon temple
I had to go to St. George on business three times and each time I was asked: “Are you a member of The Church?”.
I know in one case it cost me a sale.
Remember Henry Lee, the leader of the ‘Mountain Meadow Massacre’, lead the men that came from St. George and the surviving children were parceled out to LDS families.
The area was very puritanical LDS and probably remains so.
(Most small towns in Utah are the same.)
To the headline: DUH?
“outwardly” Bingo!
Phony as $3 bills.
No coffee, no alcohol...to each their own, but jeez...
When I lived in Layton, my wife applied as a teller at Zion Bank.
The application had all the normal stuff. But, one question confounded her so she put a question mark in the space.
The question was “In which ward do you live?”____________.
She was not hired. We later learned from our neighbors we lived in the Fox Creek Ward.
(Great example of what this article addressed)
In 2001 at the BYU Women’s Conference, James A. Toronto, a BYU associate professor, was invited to speak. His title: “No More Strangers and Foreigners” This was published by BYU the following year under the title “Ye Shall Bear Record of Me.”
BTW, did I "get this" info from some "anti-Mormon" site? (No. I own the book)
Now, indeed, what does Dr. Toronto say that tends to reinforce your comments above?
p. 35 of No More Strangers and Foreigners: ”As adviser to several non-LDS student groups on BYU campus and a teacher of world religions, I have had many opportunities to interact with those whose ethnicity, religion, politics or lifestyle places them outside the BYU mainstream…Unfortunately…those of divergent backgrounds among us hae felt excluded, demeaned, or diminished…I have wondered what leads us to exhibit sometimes intolerant, unkind attitudes toward others. Why does society at large perceive us as a community characterized by insular attitudes toward outsiders?”
Toronto then adds some are “mistreated” and “have difficulty being accepted.”
p. 36 of book: ”I have also observed that doctrinal misunderstandings often lie at the root of intolerant behavior and attitudes sometimes exhibited by Church members. Three prominent examples will illustrate. First, sometimes Church members…refer…only to the seemingly exclusivist language of certain scriptural passages…we unwittingly portray a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou stance that…is offensive to nonmembers. In my comparative world religions course, I deal with this problem in the first minute of the first class period each semester. I begin the discussion by reading some scriptures familiar to all Latter-day Saints: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth’ (D&C 1:30); the leaders of other faiths ‘draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me’ and all their creeds are an ‘abomination’ in God’s sight (Joseph Smith-History 1:19)…”
p. 37 of book: ”We reinforce the erroneous idea that all other religious are completely false and dead and that our community does not value the spiritual experience of others.”
On p. 39 of book, Dr. Toronto also mentions ”how a skewed understanding of doctrine can lead to unkind attitudes and behavior…”
So, to sum up Dr. Toronto, a BYU prof:
(1) He said: ”…doctrinal misunderstandings often lie at the root of intolerant behavior and attitudes…” (p. 36)
(2) Lds communicate to the Christian world that we “are completely false and dead” (p. 37) and are creedally valueless as Lds “scripture” teaches that Christians don’t have a single creed that honors God.
(3) He also blamed ”…a skewed understanding of doctrine” as what was behind …”lead[ing] to unkind attitudes and behavior…”
It's this last point I want to close my comment upon. You see, it's not simply, I believe, lack of Mormon graciousness...lack of Mormon charity...etc. that has resulted in what Mormons and especially Mormon leaders have said about Christians for 180 years. I think Dr. Toronto is on to something when he says: "...a skewed understanding of doctrine" has overwhelmingly contributed to fueling "unkind attitudes and behaviors..."!!!
For posters & lurkers who aren't aware of what the Mountain Meadow Massacre was, it was Southwest Utah, late 1850s -- when a group of almost 140 NON-MORMONS were travelling from Arkansas to CA -- were almost out of the state...
The Mormons dressed up as Indians, and got a few Indians to join an attack on the wagon train. This actually turned out to be THE first 9/11 domestic terror attack -- as one of the attack days was Sept. 11...and it resulted in the death of 120 children, moms & dads. When the people were under seige, they held off for days -- and the few Indians involved gave up; a Mormon messenger approached the group...some dying from wounds...not much water left...& offered to escort them past the "Indians"...but they would need to disarm themselves.
The Fancher-Baker party believed this subterfuge...and after walking a ways, were executed at close range...their clothes then ripped off their dead bodies...washed and worn by Southern Utah Mormons for years...their first-classes horses and other possessions stolen...and 17 babies and toddlers & a few older than that kidnapped...until the Army rescued them a few years later and gave them back to relatives.
Only one Mormon attacker was ever held accountable for these actions. Some were Lds bishops; at least one became an eventual Lds bishop -- so it wasn't like these men were disgraced within the Lds broader community. Instead, they covered up as much as possible within the Washington County and surrounding areas.
*****************************************
The Mountain Meadow Massacre wasn't the only example of Southern Utah "hospitality" in the 19th century:
I read the book DOWN THE GREAT UNKNOWN: JOHN WESLEY POWELL'S 1869 JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY & TRAGEDY by Edward Dolnick (Perennial Books), 2001. Powell, of course, was the one-armed Civil War vet who became the first known white man/white party to venture down the Green/Colorado River thru the Grand Canyon.
Shortly before finishing the trip, three of his party ventured out on foot into Utah Territory...never to be heard from again other than the Mormon leaders trying to pin the deaths of the three men on Indians. [a common pattern by Mormons]
On pp. 283-285, Dolnick cites an amateur historian & former dean of the college of science @ So. Utah Univ. (Wesley Larsen) re: a letter Larsen found in 1980 in a trunk belonging to the John Steele family. Steele was a judge and a militia officer & father of the first white child born in Utah territory. The letter was written to Steele from William Leany. Both were devout Mormons. Book mentions Leany had run afoul of the Mormon church by giving an emigrant a meal & roof & veggies. Book excerpt:
"Leany's fellow Mormons charged him with giving 'aid and comfort to the enemy.' To teach him a lesson, someone clubbed him over the head, fracturing his skull and leaving him for dead. Leany survived. By 1883, he and Steele were old men. Steele evidently suggested to his good friend Leany that the time had come for them both to repent of their sins. Leany wanted no part of it. The church had blood on its hands, but he had nothing to repent. Like an Old Testament preacher, Leany thundered that 'thieving whoredom murder & Suicide & like abominations' reigned in the land. Then came the sentence that, a century later, electrified Wes Larsen: 'You are far from ignorant of those deeds of blood from the day the picket fence was broken on my head to the day those three were murdered in our ward & the murderer killed to stop the shedding of more blood.' ...Larsen... embarked on a frenzied round of detective work. The reference to 'our ward,' a local Mormon district run by a bishop, was the first clue. Leany and Steele had lived in the same ward only once through the years, in 1869. And in that same fateful year, Larsen found, only one trio of men...had been reported missing or killed in southern Utah."
"Further, Larsen learned, only weeks before the Powell expedition reached Separation Rapid, Brigham Young had traveled throughout the region warning the faithful that the long-threatened invasion of Utah by Gentiles was imminent. When 'war' came, Young warned his listeners, blood would rise 'to their knees and even to their waist and to their horses' bridle bits.' The Mormon leader ordered sentries posted at all the passes leading into southern Utah. Then, at the worst possible moment, three white strangers wandered into no-man's-land spouting a cock-and-bull story about their trip down a river that everyone knew was impassable. The three men were dragged off and executed as spies, Larsen speculates, and the news of the unsanctioned executions triumphantly telegraphed to Salt Lake City..."
"In Larsen's scenario, the next step was an exact replay of the Mormon response to the 120 killings at Mountain Meadows. First came cover-up...then a vow of silence on the part of those who knew the truth, and finally a finger of blame pinning the crime on the nearest Indians."
Bottom line: I think at least for the generational Mormons of Southern Utah (not newcomers), what's been inculcated among Mormons is distrust of non-Mormons.
I’ve always been told they do.
He's the guy sitting on the coffin...his
PS
Just guessing...looks like point of the Mountain
You did an excellent job of explaining just went down in a few short paragraphs.
John D. Lee later “hid” for many years on the Colorado River
operating a ferry. The site is still called “Lee’s Ferry” and is located about two miles north of where AZ Hwy 89 crosses the River at Marble Canyon.
Brigham Young had full knowledge of the attack and most probably ordered it. This ‘ordering’ was never proven.
The LDS leader in Cedar City carried out this order to John D. Lee. Nothing moved in Utah without B. Young knowing.
The Mountain Meadow Massacre was finally admitted to by the
LDS Church about 10 years ago. The LDS Church Committee whitewash any involvement by B. Young.
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