Replies

I'd prefer "favor" or "kindness" in as many cases as possible

To have "favor" everywhere would be the tin sound of Joel Osteen speech. At least what you "prefer" seems to be consistent.

But curiously, the Protestant translations have "favor" when talking about grace in Mary, but switch to "grace" when the need to fool the reader went away. Hence "sleaze"; that is exactly what it is.

To have "favor" everywhere would be the tin sound of Joel Osteen speech. At least what you "prefer" seems to be consistent.

But curiously, the Protestant translations have "favor" when talking about grace in Mary, but switch to "grace" when the need to fool the reader went away. Hence "sleaze"; that is exactly what it is.

Well no, the morals of the translators are not placed in doubt over this. Your essential charge appears to be willful inconsistency, as if to use "favor" is somehow "unfavorable" toward Mary. Yet charis, the root upon which charitoo is built, is translated "favor" numerous places, most notably here:

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Are you prepared to say "favor" here diminishes the stature of Jesus Himself, Son of God? Yet not so, because as to His developing human nature there was more and more in Him that brought the favor of both God and man.

So the charge that the term "favor" is a deliberate sleight against Mary is completely baseless, unless you are saying they also sleighted Jesus with equal intent. Perhaps all the KJV translators were closet Arians? Who knew. :)

These are the other passages translating charis as "favor":

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 7:9-10 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, (10) And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.

Acts 7:44-46 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. (45) Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; (46) Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

Acts 25:2-3 Then the high priest and the chief of the Jews informed him [Festus] against Paul, and besought him, (3) And desired favour against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem, laying wait in the way to kill him.

What is interesting about these and a number of OT references that use the same term, "favor," is that they depict the relationship a sovereign or a group of people had with a particular individual. I am not an expert on Elizabethan psycholinguistics, but it would be interesting to find and interview such a person regarding this data, because it may well turn out the translators saw "favor" as a good and commendatory way to express these special grants of good will toward certain individuals.

Indeed, in the special case of Acts 25:2-3, where it is ill will sought, and not good, the abstraction of "favor" as a descriptor of the nature of a relationship is even more difficult to dismiss. They "desired favor against him" could well be understood as "they desired [Festus to have] ill will against him [Paul]." That's an impressive departure from the stereotypical meaning of "grace" in English.

So without better information regarding the translators specific motives for their word choices, the passage in Luke 2:52 renders me unable to accuse them of deliberately disfavoring Mary, as you have charged. You are, of course, welcome to ignore my opinions, and double down on your own, and such would be the expected, if somewhat boring outcome in these interminable FR RF debates. But I cannot join you in condemning the motives of individuals long dead, who may well have done nothing wrong, and more probably did their very best to be faithful stewards of Scripture.

Peace,

SR

Douay...

>>But curiously, the Protestant translations have "favor" when talking about grace in Mary, but switch to "grace" when the need to fool the reader went away.<<

Luke 1:28 And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one (kecharitōmenē), the Lord is with thee;

kecharitōmenē - I favor, bestow freely on [http://biblehub.com/greek/5487.htm]