Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone
The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.
verga:And ignore the "inconvenient" parts.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
The old adage that an advocate should never ask a witness a question in court for which he does not already know the answer comes to mind. I'm amazed at all the amateur translators who pop up from time to time. What was that old ad line, "So simple, even a caveman can do it ?"
Do you go to the internet when the police charge you with a crime? No you go to a Lawyer, someone that went to Law School and passed the Bar exam and has experience dealing with the type of case before.
And we go to the Holy Spirit to have spiritual truths revealed to us by Him.
Why waste time on *theologians* who have been *educated* into unbelief?
Yes, I understand that you believe as Luther. I find him and Sola Fide to be in error.
That's because you've been reading your Bible, you heretic./
Don't you know you're supposed to base your understanding of Catholic doctrine on the postings of an anonymous internet poster claiming to be Catholic?
Revelation 1:12-18 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Baby Jesus no longer exists.
The pre-crucified Jesus no longer exists. That body died and His blood was poured out for the atonement, as it must have been.
Then no one needs to be baptized, go to confession, take communion, receive last rites, do works of charity, give alms, or whatever else the Catholic church deems one must add to their faith to be saved.
BTW, you do realize, don't you, that you anathematized yourself with that statement, don't you?
DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION (anathemas)
http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
A couple more that you might want to consider:
Canon 19. If anyone says that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor forbidden, but free; or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians, let him be anathema.
Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.
Canon 27. If anyone says that there is no mortal sin except that of unbelief, or that grace once received is not lost through any other sin however grievous and enormous except by that of unbelief, let him be anathema.
And if you're not perfect, you don't get into heaven.
So it's too late for everyone already.
I wonder if Paul went to the Corinthians asking if they were properly concocting the fish gut potion in accordance with Tobit 6.
Tobit 6 Good News Translation (GNT)
The angel answered,
The heart and liver can be burned and used to chase away a demon or an evil spirit that is tormenting someone. The attacks will stop immediately, and the person will never be troubled again. 8 You can use the gall bladder to treat someone whose eyes are covered with a white film. Just rub it on his eyes and blow on the film, and he will be able to see again.
Amen.
So what are the traditions that Paul taught that we need to know, that are so essential to salvation, that the Holy Spirit failed to include in Scripture?
How do you know they’re from Paul?
How do you know that they’ve been passed down faithfully, without corruption?
Please post your sources for verification purposes.
Your key witness converted from Lutheranism to Orthodoxy in 1998 after meeting with blessed John Paul II and you still want to use a book he wrote in 1959 against Orthodoxy. This supplements my opinion that this is primarily an antiCatholic, or antiOrthodox itch that does not go away no matter how often one scratches. In fact, the more one scratches, the more it itches.
If you choose to honestly look at your expert witness, who converted to Orthodox Christianity, with respect to the point you were trying before this court, I place into evidence:
Not eating blood predates the Old Covenant.
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
And then there's this.....
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
All of it I would suspect. I know it is sad, and I used to be in it. I do not agree with the catholic plan of salvation, but here is the rub. There are quite a few other cults out there, whose plan of salvation is virtually word for word the same. Baptism, membership in "our" church, a small bit of faith and good works. They might all be wrong, but they certainly can't all be right. To give you an example, the Philippine Church of Christ members really don't like the Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Quiboloy's people, and others, but their plan of salvation is almost exactly the same. That's some stuff huh?
You should post that as a separate article.
A very reasoned approach Fr. Theodore takes towards the packaged “easy believism” most Orthodox apologists approach.
But I truly enjoyed his loving approach towards the subject.
His one flaw was to stereotype “the once and done” salvation theme. From there the remainder of the article is based on the original flaw. Don’t get me wrong. The good Fr could find such as those who fit his description (and through personal experience) however even the most orthodox Evangelical will tell you:
John 5:24:Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.(KJV)
One can point to the above from Jesus Christ and point to Paul’s teaching on justification by faith. What Jesus also teaches us is Christ will not leave us or forsake us as well.
In more detail Paul teaches in Romans chapter 8 that those God calls, He Justifies, He conforms to the image of the Son (sanctification) and One Glorious Day will glorify.
Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?(KJV)
I remember a while back, maybe 2 years ago I was looking at Catholic Answers and came across the saying: I am saved (Justification), I’m being saved (sanctification), I will be saved (Glorification). Seems to align well with Romans 8.
So why do Protestants and Evangelicals get the pointy end when laying such out? Why must it always be some straw man as even the nice GO priest uses?
Faith is an action. Faith clearly implies faithfulness. Faith is not ‘comatose’ meaning inactive. The True Vine is alive and the branches which abide in the Vine will produce fruit.
As Jesus Christ said: “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”
One more time...”without me {Jesus Christ} he can do nothing.
....nothing.
Pretty clear.
I look for truth and value before I make a purchase.
Then you need to look at source more than a particular organization. Did the NT church begin because souls followed the magisterium?
In post 3246 you wrote.. "Rest assured i certainly affirm baptism, and I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in a fundamental Baptist church about 6 years after prayerfully leaving Rome, and have been part of about 1,000 services and meetings in Baptist (Ind. and SB) churches alone over the years,... [since 1983]
Which past history was in regards to my holding to baptism, while in response to your current query i told you before that "I gladly go weekly to a nondenominational evangelical assembly of believers, with a good pastor" (mainly due to location) so why even answer your diversionary questions when you cannot remember what you were told?
I also thought they did not regard one as being in the body of Christ unless one was baptized into a valid New Testament (almost always Baptist) church.
They deny the universal church, insisting the word always refers to a local assembly, but which i never really bought in the light of Scripture. I joined because i saw the NT in Acts as one that "went everywhere preaching the word, and the IFB was the most committed church around, with buses rolling in and out, and committed to doctrinal purity, and strong leadership (singular). But the downside of that is some (they are not monolithic) almost could become cultic in disallowing conscientious dissent.
Yet since they basically hold to a common evangelical gospel message, they do not hold that only those in IFB churches as saved, which would be truly cultic, but basically like Rome, they tend to think others are deficient. Still, you have IFB churches who will supply anyone with basic gospel tracts of repentance and faith, as they are very much looking for souls to come to Christ regardless of church.
I further thought that if one was a member of an IFB church, one can never leave without somehow shedding the IFB theology, by which one is viewed by the faithful as either never having really been saved, deceived, backslidden, or some combination thereof.
That varies, and also can depend on what one leaves for, the world or another church. Yet RCs also consider those who leave,even for conservative evangelical churches, as deceived, backslidden, or some combination thereof.
It all is very interesting when I compare it with the Catholic Church and those Catholics who can hardly contain themselves from posting against the Catholic Church at every opportunity. It's not like they are trying to get Independent Fundamental Baptists to moderate, or get Pentecostals who don't believe water baptism is a required teaching from the LORD Jesus Christ to the Apostles to accept the truth, or get babblers to learn real languages if they want to say something that can be understood, or ... etc. I could go on for hours.
You already have it seems, but the difference is certainly warranted, for while we and I have had debates over certain issues, these were not salvific ones, while assent to Rome is, or even what she effectually conveys.
If more RCs realized what i did when i became manifestly born again (though being raised devout RC and sincerely believed in God, and wanted to be a priest as a kid, as two of my uncles were) at age 25, with its profound changes in heart and life, then we could have some fellowship in Christ, which i often spontaneously realize with other born again believers from various churches. But that has been a very rare find in all my years, and those usually have been a few charismatics.
But the system works contrary to that, as instead RCs imagine they became children of God via sprinkling, and will gain entrance into Heaven due to their goodness and the merits of Rome, under the rubric of God' mercy.
Most devout RCs are actually the most deceived, while most RCs are like those Kreefts spoke of,
Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus! http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html
And Rome manifests it is happy with the latter, while the devout manifest minds more like those of cultists, whose assurance of Truth does not rest upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation, but upon the presumed veracity of their leadership, which Scripture is compelled to serve.
See post 4166 and come up with a common position.
" Baby Jesus no longer exists.
The pre-crucified Jesus no longer exists. That body died and His blood was poured out for the atonement, as it must have been."
Context is your friend.
Doesn't make any difference for a Christian. Nor did St. James (not Paul) postulate that they had to be alive.
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