Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone
The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.
The good works in Matthew 25:42-46 are works of faith. The Jewish Law was to abstain form pork and lobster, not travel on Saturday and the like. Jesus taught the former and His Church abolished the latter.
I have a present for you:
Let us pray.
O clement Mary, Mother of God,
Teach us mercy
Lead us to Thy Son Jesus
Pray for us so we may be saved
What do you mean "only"? St. James writes that the faith without works would be dead. That is a big "only".
Yes; but Christ saves those who repent and come to Him.
We are not saved by works alone and neither by faith alone.
Only by the Grace of God can we be saved
That is indeed a scriptural, Catholic statement. Thank you.
God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:4-10)
Is James saying the believer has no faith or a faith that is useless/dead?
No, it is not. Micah 4 is the prophesy of the restoration of Zion. It begins in verse 1 "In the last days" which is when the nation of Israel is restored and brought back to God. Anyone who reads the entirety of Micah 4 can see that it is talking about Jerusalem NOT Mary. Is Mary also going to have "horns of iron" or "hooves of bronze" or "break to pieces many nations"?
Micah 4:13 Rise and thresh, Daughter Zion, for I will give you horns of iron; I will give you hooves of bronze, and you will break to pieces many nations.
The attempts by Catholics to inject Mary into something that clearly is not there is stunning to say the least.
A certain confusion or ambiguity about what is, and what is not, the unchangeable dogma of the Catholic Church is common among Catholics, and more common among non-Catholics.
That's going to become acute if Pope Francis makes some big splash--- as he is reportedly planning to do -- with regard to "climate change." (Let me emit a series of preemptive groans and ouches.) Catholics will be stomping all through the Internet howling "He has no authority to say any such thing!!" We'll be right, and His Holiness will be wrong.
So there, you'll have your 'Catholics decry papal error' mega-event well documented!"
However, climatological musings will not become the Doctrine of the Church, because it's an area in which the hierarchy has neither divine woo-woo inspiration nor even a veneer of expertise. I guess we all ought to be grateful that most (I hope "most") Catholics realize this. I'm going to try to make sure they hear it.
As for the rest of your remarks, you rely on the assumption that the Catholic Church has in some respects been corrected by Protestantism. I will --- surprise --- agree with you, in an important but limited sense, and perhaps not exactly the sense you have in mind.
When you look through the past 21 centuries of the Church, you see She does not serenely glide through history. She seems to kneel, then march, then prosper, then get satisfied, then get sedentary, stuffed and sick, then suffer near collapse, then be revived by reformer-saints, then enter into a new period of fervor, etc. etc. It is a reeling walk and a lurching progress, much graced by immense goodness and much smirched as She trails her gowns through the muck.
Christopher Dawson's view is that this comes in roughly 300-400 year cycles. This is just "Dawson's view," and there are different ways to slice this salami, but I find his outline useful. The thing to keep in mind in terms of the development of doctrine, is than development always comes about under the stimulation of controversy and crisis, when people are tearing off in opposite directions, and an ecumenical council or something has to be convened to maintain peace and unity in the Household of the Faith.
This usually doesn't proceed with tranquility, end with an oracular statement from the Pope, and then subside into a newfound unanimity. More frequently, the contention continues even as the Council Fathers are toting their bags to the Termini. Weren't they bug-tussling about Arianism a couple of centuries after the Council of Nicaea "defeated" Arius?
The Church has always needed reforming ("Ecclesia semper reformanda") and there is no question that corruption extending to the highest hierarchical levels in the early Renaissance proved the seedbed of the Protestant revolt.
Just as Arianism spurred Nicaea, Lutheranism-Calvinism spurred Trent, and the task was driven along by the lash of literal warfare as the various Reformation forces recruited princes and arms and proceeded to nationalize churches. By the time of Trent, the Church was under immense pressure to make that which had long been implicit, explicit. Hence, the development of doctrine.
This did not, of course, cease at the dawn of the 17th century. It's an ongoing thing: new questions bring new answers, or -- better --- new reformulations and elaborations of the ancient, and even timeless, answers.
At its worst, historically, I think --- OK, we'll skip all that. Imagine a big ellipsis here, and I'll spare you even the adverbs, let alone the verbs!
Whatever late-Renaissance Protestantism may have been at its worst, at its best it may constitute a fruitful and fraternal questioning which spurs a deeper consideration of the truth on both sides. That's what, at its best, I hope this chronic fracas known as the Free Republic Religion Forum accomplishes.
I doesn't happen a whole heckuva lot, unfortunately. But when it does, we have each other to thank for it.
To you and other constructive contributors, I say "Thank you."
Through the Holy Spirit. We do not live in a world without grace.
He was only "venerating".
I could not find anywhere in the Catechism where it says that Jesus does the will of Mary. But in saying that Jesus does the will of Mary, it is with the understanding that Mary’s prayer to Jesus is in accord with the plan of the Father.
The Catechism teaches in Paragraph 2677 that when Mary prays for us, she prays for us as she prayed for herself: “Let it be to me according to your word.” By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: “Thy will be done.” (2677)
In the real world words actually mean things, and the overly active imagination of ignorant prots will not change that. When Catholics tell you all that we don't treat Mary with the same reverence we do God than the matter is settled.
It has been shown time and time again in these threads how Catholics elevate Mary giving her status and abilities which are God's alone.
Only to narrow minded ignorant bigots.
Please show me where in that passage we are saved by a mix of faith and works?
Someone need to pay attention to the things they said up thread. Your post 3548: Christ always did say He would use the simple things to confound the wise and those with human understanding.
Please prove that Christ's words "This is My body" were not literal, they are.
I never used the word assumed. I was stating a fact. You dodged the question. The legal adage is that "Silence implies consent".
Yeah, and when Sharpton says he's not racist we should consider the matter settled right? And when Obama says he's a Christian we should consider the matter settled. And when Mormon's say they are Christian we should consider the matter settled. Riiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhtttttt.
You failed. Please show where anyone has said they should not go their pastor.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Gal 5:18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,
Gal 5:21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk.
Prots have difficulty accepting the truth
Oh so your pastor is not wise. Then why go to him?
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