Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone
The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.
I have a Bible in my hand as we speak and it says:into her presence the angel came and said"Hail thou who art full of grace, the Lord is with thee"
close enough for me
Proverbs 15:12 A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.
Yeah....not gonna give up that cash cow for sure. Stuff isn't cheap either! you can even get the pope the "bless" it for you!
WOW, it's a good thing that you guy's/gals came along one thousand six hundred years after Catholics made all those errors to save the world from them...without the revolutionaries, we'd still be in the dark........please.
Romans 3:23....all have sinned...
Next question please?
You seem to have a problem with everything the Church does to support its charity work. Is it envy at how little you and your Church does? I don’t know.
Neither of you have answered the question as to what work your churches do for the poor, sick, imprisoned, homeless, and uneducated. My assumption is not that much, in comparison.
The Statue of Laocoon is a treasured piece of art that is from around 27BC to 62 AD. So what? How else is it going to pay for the conservation of some of the world’s finest art which was donated over the centuries and protected from invading hordes? People from all over the world view the extensive collection and want souvenirs of their visit.
Regardless, you do nothing but badmouth the Church. Why? I don’t seem to think it is for any positive purpose but to inflate your egos. It may be worth asking yourself, who founded your Church and why do you choose to worship there? Additionally, why do you spend so much time being critical of other Christians? Are you doing it out of love?
I will ask you to contemplate 2 Timothy 2:24. Really pray about it. Ask God to touch your heart.
It is a violation of canon law to sell blessed objects.
Try again.
How was this thread started again? The article was an anti-Catholic piece. So perhaps you may want to reconsider your statement.
Here's what the original Greek says.
That is what the Holy Spirit had written. If the Bible you have in front of you, probably Douay-Rheims Bible, it does say what the Holy Spirit inspired to be written. Your Douay-Rheims Bible also has an erroneous statement in Genesis 3:15 where the Catholic Church changed "He" to "she".
The Catholic Church is built on lies.
I know the myth of the Catholic Church being the “first church” is important to Catholics but it’s simply a lie of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is built on the base of apostate “churches” and not the ekklesia spoken of in scripture.
...”I don’t know”.....
You are correct you don’t know.
However, I will say that we are not limited to giving only to catholic charities.....our churches give much but in addition we as memebrs are free to also give to a host of charitable organizations who do a much better job seeing the money gets to the places it’s intended rather than just catholic organizations where it’s known there is corruption.
Why would any here even begin to be envious of the Catholic church? If anything were I a member I’d be ashamed and would have left it as soon as the pedifile crimes were exposed and continue to be so to do this day.
The fact you’ve resorted to saying people are jealous speaks volums.... there’s absolutely no reason for any here to be jealous over catholics, rather, the warning to flee from the catholic church for obvious reasons of which have been exposed time and again on these threads.......
Even your Pope has addressed the crimes and corruption throughout the church....shall I post these as well???? I’m sure you must be aware.
Look, it doesn’t take much to realize that catholics are unwilling and in many cases unable to see the truth for what it is....so their natural defenses automatically kick in as most have been indoctrinated to believe if the church is opposed by “outsiders” then they’re bigots or anti-catholics. So no surprise it shows up on these threads.
I think I'm beginning to understand protestantism and I may convert. I don't have to atone for my sins, no matter what I do my sins are covered, repentance and penance are pretty much passe', nothing I do will be taken into account, we all die and go directly to Heaven. Man, that's easier than Catholics have it...we are expected to behave, refrain from sin, seek repentance when we fall short, attend Mass, confess our sins,WOW, you guys sure have it easy.........
Some do, even though they do not manifest saving faith, while it is RCs who are the largest subscribers to "easy believism," as while they will not say that they know they have eternal life now, yet they hardly seem worried that will got to Hell, if they even believe in it, and instead they believe they are children of God via infant sprinkling, and have implicitly faith that their own merits and that of Rome will ultimately gain them entrance into glory thru purgatory.
That is all under the rubric of an ambiguous belief in Divine mercy. To their eternal horror, as they never had a true day of conversion when they realized the new birth with its profound changes.
Meanwhile, Reformers preached that while God justifies the UnGodly by faith being counted as righteousness, (Romans 4:5) such faith must be the kind that will effect practical holiness, "things that accompany salvation." (Heb. 6:9)
In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is,
a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]
And truly, I wonder exceedingly, how it came to be imputed to me, that I should reject the Law or ten Commandments, there being extant so many of my own expositions (and those of several sorts) upon the Commandments, which also are daily expounded, and used in our Churches, to say nothing of the Confession and Apology, and other books of ours. Martin Luther, [”A Treatise against Antinomians, written in an Epistolary way”, http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_against_the_antinomians.html]
Thus God warns believers against having an "evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God," drawing back to perdition, (Heb. 3:12; 10:38; cf. Gal. 5:1-4) whereas the true believers "believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb. 10:39)
The historical Calvinistic position is that of this perseverance of the saints, the P in TULIP, which in contrast to the other OSAS position in which one is saved based upon faith in Christ to save them no matter how they lived, upholds the fact that saving faith is one is characterized by following the Lord in whom they trust.
With the Puritans this could go an extreme opposite that of the antinomians. An account (http://www.the-highway.com/Early_American_Bauckham.html) of Puritans during the early American period notes,
“They had, like most preachers of the Gospel, a certain difficulty in determining what we might call the ‘conversion level’, the level of difficulty above which the preacher may be said to be erecting barriers to the Gospel and below which he may be said to be encouraging men to enter too easily into a mere delusion of salvation. Contemporary critics, however, agree that the New England pastors set the level high. Nathaniel Ward, who was step-son to Richard Rogers and a distinguished Puritan preacher himself, is recorded as responding to Thomas Hooker’s sermons on preparation for receiving Christ in conversion with, ‘Mr. Hooker, you make as good Christians before men are in Christ as ever they are after’, and wishing, ‘Would I were but as good a Christian now as you make men while they are preparing for Christ.’”
Perseverance of the saints recognizes believers may fall away, but holds that God will bring them to repentance, and that the elect will finally persevere to die in faith.
While man must make a decision to believe on the Lord Jesus to save the contrite damned+destitute sinner by His blood and righteousness, man can take no credit for this as in conversion God draws the soul, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32) and convicts man of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, (Jn. 16:9) opens the heart, (Acts 16:14) and grants repentant faith. (Acts 11:18; Eph. 2:8,9)
And while God states the we are of Christ's house, and partakers with Him "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end," "the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end," (Hebrews 3:6) yet no man can take credit for this since any faithfulness is due to "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)
But believers are to be blamed for drawing back from following Christ, via submitting to a false gospel as in Gal. 5:1-4, and or impenitent willful in as in Heb. 10:24ff. And some as myself cannot help but see these warnings to believers (as these are clearly addressed to souls as believers) against effectively denying the faith, as being that of forfeiting what faith appropriated. Yet God works and works to bring such to repentance. Thus almighty God chastens believers unto repentance "lest we be condemned with the rest of the world," (1Cor. 11:32)
I still don't know why so many feel the need to attack Catholic traditions and teachings
Because first of all, the Roman basis for determination of Truth, of what and who is of God versus not, is that under which the church began, that being Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, but rests upon the novel premise of perpetual magisterial infallibility.
Thus it is disallowed that one can be correct in dissent from the historical magisterium and stewards of Scripture, and a RC is not to ascertain by evidential warrant the integrity of RC official teaching, but such are to be believed based upon the premise of the assured veracity of Rome.
Second, repeating much that i said in a previous post, in contrast to all the description above of the gospel of grace, the gospel of Rome proceeds from the false premise that one is formally justified on the basis of his interior holiness, that at baptism one is made good enough to enter Heaven due to "infused charity," versus God justifying the UnGodly by faith being counted as righteousness, as Scripture teaches:
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)
Rejecting this as meaning imputed versus actual righteousness as the basis for justification, and since the RC does not maintain that baptismal perfection in this life, then under this salvation system he must spend an indeterminate time suffering "purifying torments" in "purgatory" to (atone for sins and) once again become good enough to enter Heaven.
Yet all believers are already accepted in the Beloved and seated with Christ, (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) and in Scripture all sanctifying work is done in this world with its trials and temptations, in which there is an sinful alternative to suffering.
Moreover, all the verses which clearly speak of a N.T. believer's postmortem condition (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) show it is with the Lord, in whose presence there is fulness of joy (Ps. 16:11).
Furthermore, the only manifest postmortem suffering for believers is that of suffering the loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, and the grievous shame of the Lord's disapproval, all due to the quality of the material he built the church with. But which does not occur until the Lord's return, and the elect are saved despite the loss of rewards, not because of them.
These and many other things that are not in Scripture and of its church compel those who stand for Scriptural Truths to dissent from her.
The Catholic Church honors and venerates The Blessed Mother as a special human without sin and servant and obedient to God.
Meaning that not only is it not necessary or taught that Mary was sinless - and the Holy Spirit characteristically notes even far less notable exceptions to the norm in Scripture, but it goes way above that which is written in honoring and venerating her, to almost deifying her .
..ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written..(1 Corinthians 4:6)
As indeed Catholics hold that it is impossible to honor her to excess, while holding that they observe a theoretical distinction btwn "hyperdulia" and worship. Vainly imagining that one kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, and as having Divine powers and glory, and making offerings and beseeching such for Heavenly help, directly accessed by mental prayer, would not be seen as an idolator, like as those who burned incense to the bronze serpent that they ad looked upon for healing. (Num. 21)
Yet many here accuse the Catholic Church of raising her to the level of God and accuse us of false worship.
Close enough in the first case and true in the second. A look at the evidence leaves no other conclusion.
They are unwilling to accept the teaching of the Catholic Church
Indeed, as such things are clearly not of Scripture, upon which foundation the gospel and the church had its doctrinal foundation.
....”Us-Against-Them mentality”....
As I see it that mindset to oppose all who have tried to expose and reveal the truth they need to know...and the rufusal of the leadership to turn back to Christianity as God intended it to be, they have now chosen to go the way of Rome via the Globalist Agenda and have securly tied themselves and their members to that agenda.
The Popes push for Unity of the Faiths, and inclusions on common ground, is swelling and moving the nations to what will prove to be the worst sin the catholic church could ever commit against God. I fear it will soon be too late if not already for them to turn from the trajectory they are being led on.
Please post the Greek for review. Thanks!
A lot of this echo chamber amongst some anti-Catholic folks, as opposed to people of good will who just disagree, has no authority to validate their beliefs.
While many make bold statements (not on this thread) that the Holy Bible or the Holy Spirit is the only authority for them, those statements, while generally true, don’t seem to hold up in execution. Rather, it is the opinion of many different men and women, as to what the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible are telling them. Thus there is confusion among the myriad of denominations of Protestants.
The Holy Catholic Church teaches with the authority of Jesus Christ, handed down in direct lineage from the Apostles (Matthew 16:18). Until the Reformation, the Church battled any number of heretics, from Arians, Monatists, etc. When the Reformation rolled around, a more organized opposition appeared. However, Protestantism quickly fell into division, as they argued amongst themselves (Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, etc.).
Throughout this time, the Holy Catholic Church continued to preach the Gospel, feed the poor, care for the sick, clothe the naked and visit the imprisoned. It continued to teach what the Apostles had taught. When questions arose, they were answered, in many cases, with the final human authority, Pope, publicly declaring a decision.
As we have witnessed since the 16th century, there has been no end of mud slung against the Catholic Church, and amongst fellow Protestants. It is a sad state of affairs when people who all claim to follow Jesus Christ attack each other.
Are the humans who populate the Catholic Church sinless? HAH! Hardly! There are at least as many liars, adulterers, hypocrites, etc as any other Christian denomination. However, the fullness of God’s truth continues to be preached and lived, despite the imperfection of its adherents.
This will be my final comment on this thread. Sadly, like others before, ultimately devolve into petty argument.
May God bless you all, enliven your hearts and souls, encourage love for one another, and prepare you for Christmas.
wait a second, wikipedia is Elsie's favorite source...I never refer to it except in this case because I was in a hurry. Catholics do not take it as a source and by the way, what does the "Word" have to say about the number of protestant denominations....it doesn't even mention them.
Catholics sure do build a lot on assumption don't they.
>>The Statue of Laocoon is a treasured piece of art that is from around 27BC to 62 AD.<<
Deuteronomy 7:5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
Exodus 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
Do you see any "conserve" in those commands of God?
>>Regardless, you do nothing but badmouth the Church. Why?<<
Because they directly disobey God as shown above. Why would you follow an organization that disobeys God?
>>I will ask you to contemplate 2 Timothy 2:24.<<
I will ask you to not try to present a false understanding of scripture by stopping at that verse and not continuing on.
2 Timothy 2:25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
Really pray about it asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the lies of the organization you defend. "Escape from that trap of the devil".
>>It is a violation of canon law to sell blessed objects.<<
“At your request we will bring it to receive the Blessing from the Holy Father” http://www.vaticangift.com/contents/en-us/d36_holy_statues.html
Pope don’t need no stinking laws
Catholics didn't start the revolution, protestants did...
It was started as a correction of the corrupt practice of veneration of Mary which is clearly not sanctioned in scripture. The truth of Proverbs 15:12 as Catholics have been showing is evident.
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