Posted on 11/28/2014 2:33:31 PM PST by NYer
It was the day after Ash Wednesday in 2012 when I called my mom from my dorm room at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and told her I thought I was going to become Catholic.
“You’re not going to become Catholic, you just know you’re not Southern Baptist,” she said.
“No, I don’t think so.”
A pause. “Oh boy,” she sighed.
I started crying.
I cannot stress enough how much I hated the idea of becoming Catholic. I was bargaining to the last moment. I submitted a sermon for a competition days before withdrawing from school. I was memorizing Psalm 119 to convince myself of sola scriptura. I set up meetings with professors to hear the best arguments. I purposefully read Protestant books about Catholicism, rather than books by Catholic authors.
Further, I knew I would lose my housing money and have to pay a scholarship back if I withdrew from school, not to mention disappointing family, friends, and a dedicated church community.
But when I attempted to do my homework, I collapsed on my bed. All I wanted to do was scream at the textbook, “Who says?!”
I had experienced a huge paradigm shift in my thinking about the faith, and the question of apostolic authority loomed larger than ever.
But let’s rewind back a few years.
I grew up in an evangelical Protestant home. My father was a worship and preaching pastor from when I was in fourth grade onwards. Midway through college, I really fell in love with Jesus Christ and His precious Gospel and decided to become a pastor.
It was during that time that I was hardened in my assumption that the Roman Catholic Church didn’t adhere to the Bible. When I asked one pastor friend of mine during my junior year why Catholics thought Mary remained a virgin after Jesus’ birth when the Bible clearly said Jesus had “brothers,” he simply grimaced: “They don’t read the Bible.”
Though I had been in talks with Seattle’s Mars Hill Church about doing an internship with them, John Piper’s book Don’t Waste Your Life clarified my call to missionary work specifically, and I spent the next summer evangelizing Catholics in Poland.
So I was surprised when I visited my parents and found a silly looking book titled Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic on my father’s desk. What was my dad doing reading something like this? I was curious and hadn’t brought anything home to read, so I gave it a look.
David Currie’s memoir of leaving behind his evangelical education and ministries was bothersome. His unapologetic defense of controversial doctrines regarding Mary and the papacy were most shocking, as I had never seriously considered that Catholics would have sensible, scriptural defenses to these beliefs.
The book’s presence on my father’s desk was explained more fully a few months later when he called me and said he was returning to the Catholicism of his youth. My response? “But, can’t you just be Lutheran or something?” I felt angry, betrayed, and indignant. For the next four months I served as a youth pastor at my local church and, in my free time, read up on why Catholicism was wrong.
During that time, I stumbled across a Christianity Today article that depicted an “evangelical identity crisis.” The author painted a picture of young evangelicals, growing up in a post-modern world, yearning to be firmly rooted in history and encouraged that others had stood strong for Christ in changing and troubled times. Yet, in my experience, most evangelical churches did not observe the liturgical calendar, the Apostles’ Creed was never mentioned, many of the songs were written after 1997, and if any anecdotal story was told about a hero from church history, it was certainly from after the Reformation. Most of Christian history was nowhere to be found.
For the first time, I panicked. I found a copy of the Catechism and started leafing through it, finding the most controversial doctrines and laughing at the silliness of the Catholic Church. Indulgences? Papal infallibility? These things, so obviously wrong, reassured me in my Protestantism. The Mass sounded beautiful and the idea of a visible, unified Church was appealing - but at the expense of the Gospel? It seemed obvious that Satan would build a large organization that would lead so many just short of heaven.
I shook off most of the doubts and enjoyed the remainder of my time at college, having fun with the youth group and sharing my faith with the students. Any lingering doubts, I assumed, would be dealt with in seminary.
I started my classes in January with the excitement of a die-hard football fan going to the Super Bowl. The classes were fantastic and I thought I had finally rid myself of any Catholic problems.
Elsie: some of...
Ah, yes, you are right. I should have added "as a denominational policy."
I overdid it. And you were gentle . . .
LOL....Seriously ?
Yep. You didn’t know this?
Chapter and verse from the Bible...please...
I have read the Bible cover to cover several times, over 35 years, never read anything about the Paradise part of Hell...
No man-made up extra biblical nonsense...
Nonconcur; but typical for local church centered theology. The Jewish Apostles had the authority of Messiah over all the local churches, which, in communion with the prophets and other departed righteous, comprised the holy catholic apostolic church. I assume you revere the KJV. And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
(Except for Enoch and Elijah, bless them. Where they were right then, I'm not sure.)
(And it gets a little fudgy when someone drowned or got cremated, but you get the idea-- their souls and spirits were separated from their bodies.)
So, hold on a mo' --
Well, it's a moment by moment marathon bro. I struggle mightily against sin, like I suspect many people do. Sometimes I have victory and sometimes I don't. Whenever I feel like I am not in the place I should be in, I always figure it is me who moved, and not God, and I need to get my act together.
He left out the part of departing Sheol in a row boat where we get “Michael row the boat ashore”. And you don’t want to die on News Year Eve at 12:00 midnight GMT because that really screws up the paperwork.
I have been convinced for years, that your concept of of Hell, or in the Greek, Hades, is pretty much the same as I think it is too. Hades, being divided in two parts, Abrham’s bosom, where Lazurus went, while the rich man went to the other part, for the lost souls. Remember Abraham was able to talk with the rich man, but the divide was fixed and not passable. BTW, these are opinions of mine, based on Luke, 2nd Peter and Jude. I am not dogmatic and I think it is not all that important, compared to the plan of salvation, but I think of these things sometimes. If someone does not agree, so be it. I think Jesus went to “Hades” for 2 reasons, to lead the saved dead to Heaven, so I think Abraham’s bosom is now empty. The second reason, He went to the other part of Hades, to address the unsaved dead, not to tell them they had another chance, but to confirm their fate, which will be the lake of fire. Apparently, His proclamation caused quite a stir among the lost. I think the lake of fire is not occupied yet, as the unsaved dead remain in the unsaved part of Hades. I think the beast and the false prophet will be the first two to be consigned to the lake of fire. I think the unsaved dead suffer in Hades the same way they will suffer in the lake of fire, but Hades is just a holding cell. Now, I think Tartarus is where God confined those fallen angels, who were involved in what was to become the great flood. Again, I am not dogmatic, and the plan of salvation is more important, but that is what I think.
Yeah, like whether the Greek word means woman or fire.
>>Yeshua definitely was directly explaning the new, incorruptible body that one must have to enter the kingdom.<<
No, he wasn't. The concept of being born again was applied to those who were still alive on this earth as I showed you. When people are "born again" of the Spirit by believing on Jesus as Lord and Saviour it's the beginning of their eternal life as Jesus said in verse 15.
>>Peter was definitely not speaking of this, he was speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.<<
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit only happens to those who have been "born again" and have "life eternal".
Truth:
You have shown nothing to anybody but your mistaken belief.
I will accept that you believe it, but it is definitely wrong. It is against every principle that Yeshua and his apostles have presented.
Most important of all, the absolute requirement that you endure to the end is totally violated by the belief that you have stated.
I have read the Bible cover to cover several times, over 35 years, never read anything about the Paradise part of Hell...
You did read it, but it appear you did not have it explained, so that you could explain it to someone else. Discipling is not a boot-strap operation. It is not too late to find someone who will follow the plan to build the churches through making disciples, not merely converts.
But here goes:
**************the lesson**************
From the following, you should gather that: (1) Hell was compartmentalized; (2) one compartment is perpetually hot; (3) one compartment is comforting; (4) there is no transfer from one to the other; (5) people in hell can pray and be heard; and (4) the answer will be "No."
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and
fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate,
full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into
Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,
and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good
things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art br> tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they
pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to
my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead,
they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they
be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. "
(Luke 16:19-27 AV)
So, it is clear that this is a picture of Sheol, or in Greek "Hades," and in English "Hell," where all dead humans went. It was divided into two compartments at the time Jesus told this parable, or so He said.
About Sheol (Strong's Heb. 7585):
>> H7585
>> שׁאל / שׁאול
>> she'ôl
>>Brown, Driver, & Briggs Definition:
>> 1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
>> >> 1a) the underworld
>> >> 1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
>> >> >> 1b1) place of no return
>> >> >> 1b2) without praise of God
>> >> >> 1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
>> >> >> 1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
>> >> >> 1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)
>> >> >> 1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
>> Part of Speech: noun feminine
Sheol/hell has gradations, and the lowest place is hot:
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains" (Deut. 32:22 AV).
Sheol also has a pleasant sector:
"I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth" (Ezek. 31:16 AV).
Jesus promised the repentant thief a trip to Paradise with Himself:
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour"Luk 23:43,44 AV)
Neglecting Jesus' experience of suffering the fiery wrath of The God from tme 6th to th 9th hour on the Cross, afterward He pronounced, "It stands finished!" (Perfect tense = something completed with lasting effects, needs not to ever be done again):
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost" (Jn. 19:30 AV).
Jesus' gave up His spirit to His Father, and His body died. He died physically:
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" (Lk. 23:46).
Jesus' soul went to Hell, and his body died and rested for a short while in a grave or tomb.
"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Ps. 16:10 AV)
Jesus had suffered all that He was to suffer, so the part of Sheol/Hades/Hell His soul went to was the comfortable place, called "Abraham's Bosom," also called "Paradise" necessarily, where the thief was to be that day on earth, after his body died also, and his soul and spirit came to Paradise to be with all those from Adam and Eve who had trusted in The Messiah Deliverer, Jesus Jehovah The Anointed One.
On His resurrection, about dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene saw Jesus, but could not touch and thus defile him before He ascended as our Great and Eternal High priest:
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (Jn. 20:17 AV)
When he ascended, He took with Himself all those persons saved by faith in Him, that had been held captive in Abraham's Bosom/Paradise to behold the Magnificent Act of placing His Incorruptible Life-bearing Sin-washing Reconciling Blood on the very real hilasterion = Mercy Seat in Heaven to mollify The Mighty God; to purchase all faithful humans persistently committing trust in Him, lock, stock and barrel; to conclude the transaction of trading their sins and their debt of punishment in exchange for His Righteousmess to be conferred and ascribed to them; and thus completely satisfied the fiery wrath of the Mighty God due them, that these humans would be reconciled to Him, and that He might unilaterally offer them His intimate fellowship and Sovereign love, already His by new birth, and further placing them by adoption into their new capacity of reigning sons and daughters, sitting with their Messiah and Lord to rule with Him as his Brethren, now titled Children Of The Father. Then Heaven was opened to these OT saints, and their Paradise attache to The Heaven.
"But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) " (Eph 4:7-10 AV)
From thence Jesus again appeared on earth, and walked with His disciples, and was seen of some 500 onlookers, for 40 days. When He gave them His final charge, He ascended back up to Heaven, from whence after ten more days He sent the Holy Ghost to guide His Summoned Saints and finish the writing of His New Will to for the plenary verbally inspired word for his churches.
"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs,
being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to
the kingdom of God:
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not
depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which,
saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost
not many days hence" (Act 1:3-5 AV)
The presence of Paradise in Heaven was verified:
From Apostle Paul: "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (2Cor.12:4 AV).
From Beloved John, the Theologian and writer of the Apocalypse:
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev. 2:7 AV).
The Tree of Life is in the New Heaven:
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (Rev. 22:2 AV).
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" (Rev. 22:14 AV).
*************end of lecture***************
Is that enough? It is the interpretation which I received from very spiritually mature disciplers, and checked against some well-known commentaters. But if you don't like it, that's up to you.
=============================================================
No, it is actually quite Christlike. Only God modifies divine commands, or expands the meaning and our human understanding of them, or removes commands (like the command to sacrifice animals).
Some examples:
✝============================================================✝
"You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'"
"But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire."
Matthew 5:21-22
------------------------------------------------------------
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'"
"But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Matthew 5:27-28
------------------------------------------------------------
"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'"
"But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
Matthew 5:31-32
------------------------------------------------------------
"Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'"
"But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King."
Matthew 5:33-35
------------------------------------------------------------
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'"
"But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."
Matthew 5:38-41
------------------------------------------------------------
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'"
"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
Matthew 5:43-45✝============================================================✝
(This response applies to post #460 too.)
God enables the believer to “remain (endure) under” the challenges He allots in life. Jesus promised that no one the Father gives Him will be taken away. I trust Him. You should to rather than trusting that fraud Rood.
". . . where the thief was to be that day on earth, . . ."
Hebrews 6:
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[3] And this will we do, if God permit.
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
There is not one word in scripture that presents what you believe.
Nobody knows who the Father gave to his son.
And finally, what does any of this have to do with 'Rood?'
Your lack of understanding of the scriptures is a matter between you and God. .
>>God enables the believer to “remain (endure) under” the challenges He allots in life.<<
Amen, and a true testimony of His promise to neither leave us or forsake us.
Romans 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
You have been shown them often by myself and many others here yet you deny.
>>Nobody knows who the Father gave to his son.<<
<1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.