Analyzing Cardinal Dolan's version of: "Who am I to judge?" [vanity]

[Heart-Rest]

Analyzing Cardinal Dolan's version of: "Who am I to judge?"

(A hypothetical but useful word-substitution

exercise)

(Imagine Cardinal Dolan or other prominent Catholic leaders voicing these slightly modified

questions)

         

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

homosexual activities?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

bisexual activities?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

adulterous activities?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

polygamous activities?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

sadistic activities?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

masochistic activities?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

performing abortions?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

performing euthanasia on the elderly or disabled people?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

enabling assisted suicide for the elderly or disabled people?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

prostitution?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

incest?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

bestiality?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

urine-related perversions?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

coprophilia?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

necrophilia?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

'NAMBLA' behaviors and activities?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

pedophilia?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to promote or engage in

priestly sexual abuse of minors?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether it's right or wrong to sin or to promote sinful

behaviors?"

Cardinal Dolan:   "Who am I to judge whether what the Catholic Church plainly teaches about all

these things is right or wrong?"

         

     

Analyzing Cardinal Dolan's version of: "Who am I to judge?"

[Salvation]

And the positive analysis? Is where?

Pray for him.

[mlizzy]

Indeed you are correct. And thank you for your pictures; they will remind me to pray more for Cardinal Dolan.

[narses]

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[Heart-Rest]

"People make mistakes. They need to be forgiven."    (Your post #20)

"And the positive analysis? Is where? Pray for him. "    (Your post #21)

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Salvation, this IS the positive analysis.

Do you make use of the Sacrament of Reconciliation?    If so, then you know that the most positve thing you can do first before making your confession is to make a sincere, honest, complete examination of conscience.   The most positive thing you can do first is to thoroughly expose every single one of your sins (not hiding a single one of them), and confess them fully.    If you deliberately hide one single sin, your confession is totally worthless.

When a leader like the apostle Judas Iscariot goes bad, or teaches errors going against the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ, you do not want him to stay in that high teaching position, harming untold numbers of other people by teaching them the wrong things.

How many wrong teachings against the teachings of the Catholic Church do you think Cardinal Dolan should be permitted, before he is forced to be removed from his high position of teaching authority?

How many souls would you want him to steer in the wrong direction towards serious mortal sins before you would want him removed from his office, "allowing another to take his place" as defined in the Bible?   (How many people has he steered in the wrong direction already, giving them false teaching about the "goodness" of serious perversion and mortal sin, diametrically opposed to actual Catholic Church teaching?)

[Salvation]

I see neither of those in your original post.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

how can you have a positive analysis of apostasy?

I believe “Cardinal” Dolan is ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to please man, he presents a false Jesus as “a way” to God, rather than THE ONLY way to God.

we are told there will be a rebellion right before the second coming and a mass falling away from the Church.
unfortunately, he is the norm in the Church rather than the exception.

[Arthur McGowan]

While he may be one man, he’s not “just” one man, if you get my point. He’s Cardinal Archbishop of New York.

If the Pope does not remove him from New York, then the Pope endorses Dolan’s scandalous buffoonery.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

of course the Pope endorses this apostasy, it is time for everyone to wake up.

does the Pope declare faith in Jesus as essential for salvation?
or
does he encourage Muslims to be good Muslims?

[CynicalBear]

>>So, I can tell the adulterer that he/she is sinning, but I don’t reject/hate/etc.<<

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

[Heart-Rest]

"I see neither of those in your original post."

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I presume you are talking about the two things you were calling for, the first being for a "positive analysis".

If a person has a cancerous tumor, is it better (more positive) for the doctors to find out about that cancerous tumor, or to ignore the truth and refuse to check for that tumor and pretend everything is just fine and dandy?

I also presume that the second thing you are referring to is your call for everyone to forgive Cardinal Dolan. Cardinal Dolan has not changed his mind so far about the sinful thoughts he expressed, nor has he reversed anything he said such as "Bravo!" and "Good for you!" when he heard that a football player was coming out as an active homosexual, a choice that could affect that man's soul, his partner's soul, and possibly many more souls who heard Cardinal Dolan say those anti-Catholic words on "Meet the Press".

He still intends at this point to go forward being the "Grand Marshall" at the 2015 St. Patrick's Parade, leading at least one group of people there who, for the first time in the history of that parade, will be advocating and promoting a mortally sinful lifestyle, and Cardinal Dolan said he was fine with that.

Cardinal Dolan has not sought forgiveness for what he said, and has not even admitted it was wrong to promote those kinds of mortally sinful behaviors, and has not made any changes to his known plans at this point (that is, he has not "made a firm purpose of amendment").

Whether you recognize it or not, it is very positive to point it out when one of the Church's leaders says or does something wrong. As an example for this (and as I mentioned to you before), look to what the writers of the Gospels and Epistles did when they found one of the Church leaders (the first Pope, Peter) did something wrong. They did not ignore those things and pretend they did not happen, but instead, wrote them down plainly in all four Gospels and in St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians for everyone to plainly see and read about, even up to our own day.

(See Matthew 26:69-75, Mark 14:66-72, Luke 22:54-62, John 18:25-27, and Galatians 2:11-21.)

Was it a positive thing that they wrote those things in the New Testament, or not?

In John 8:32, Jesus said:

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."    John 8:32

Learning the truth is ALWAYS a positive thing, whether it seems like it at first, or not.

(By the way, today Fr. Mitch Pacwa (from EWTN) joined his own voice to the growing numbers of Catholics who are saying that what Cardinal Dolan is saying and doing relating to these issues is not right.)

[Heart-Rest]

"Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops..."

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I had to look that up to see who said it, and it turns out it was Saint Athanasius.    He was referring to the "Arian Heresy", and it is recorded that the vast majority of the bishops of his time were led astray by that false heresy.

[nanetteclaret]

Modernism is the current heresy. It is every bit as bad as Arianism. See Pope St Pius X.

[Heart-Rest]

"Modernism is the current heresy. It is every bit as bad as Arianism. See Pope St Pius X."

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

You may be interested in taking a look at this video clip, which is one of the last celebrations of the Latin Mass by Fr. George Rutler at The Church of Our Savior, Manhattan, before Cardinal Dolan reassigned him to another parish in "Hell's Kitchen".

   "Perhaps the last saying of Latin Mass by Fr. Rutler at Church of Our Savior, Manhattan"

You can read about Fr. Rutler's reassignment, and the apparent bad fruits of that reassignment in these articles and comments:

   "Fr. George Rutler Moved from Our Saviour to St. Michael’s"

   "Fr. Rutler reassigned in NYC"

   "It’s Extraordinary"

   "How Much Anaesthetic Does A Dolanoscopy Require?"

[trebb]

Questions:

What should be done about these sinners?

Should they be kicked out of churches?

Is the recognition of their sins enough or does some extra action need to be taken?

What judgement would you impose?

[Heart-Rest]

"Questions:

What should be done about these sinners?

Should they be kicked out of churches?

Is the recognition of their sins enough or does some extra action need to be taken?

What judgement would you impose?"

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Well, first of all, we are ALL sinners, and so my thoughts about all those kinds of sins apply to everybody else as well.

As a Catholic, I believe in the Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation (remembering how Jesus said, "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained").    We make an honest and thorough examination of our conscience to the best of our light, then "go to confession" to a priest, telling him all of those sins we can remember which we have not already confessed, and the priest, acting "in persona Christi" (in the person of Christ) hears those sins, and the priest usually gives some kind of brief spiritual direction relating somehow to the nature of the sins you confessed, then assigns some kind of penance, asks you to say an "act of contrition" prayer, and finally pronounces the forgiveness and absolution of Jesus Christ for those sins.

Our Protestant brothers and sisters usually ask forgiveness for their sins in their prayers to God (which Catholics also do as well).    (I like to do that myself at the end of each day.)

Jesus told the sinner, "Go, and sin no more."    We should not kick all the sinners out of Church, or nobody would be there at all.    However, if a sinner knowingly and deliberately persists in their sinful behaviors, they actually remove themselves from the graces available to them through the Sacraments.

God is the one who who will judge all of us.    We should judge what constitutes sins (according to what God has taught us), but that is a completely different kind of judgment.

My point of this post was that a prominent teacher of the Church like Cardinal Dolan should NOT say (as he did, completely misapplying quotes from Pope Francis and Jesus) "who am I to judge", and "judge not", concerning the active homosexual football player, Michael Sam, when Dolan said "Bravo! Good for him!" after Sam publicly revealed his active sinful homosexuality.

I was trying to illustrate that we don't judge the sinner, but we HAVE TO judge and teach the truth about sins, and any teacher of the faith has to teach about sins in an honest, truthful way (especially a leader and prominent teacher of the faith like Cardinal Dolan).

The sin Dolan was talking erroneously about was "homosexuality", but I was just using those other persversions to more clearly illustrate why we can't properly say "who am I to judge?" concerning sins and the promotion of sins.

You can hear how ridiculous it would be to say "who am I to judge" when talking about sinful behaviors rather than sinners.    We can ask those questions another way:

• Are homosexual activities sins?    Is the promotion of homosexual activities (as in a St. Patrick's Day Parade) sin?
• Are bisexual activities sins?    Is the promotion of bisexual activities sin?
• Are adulterous activities sins?    Is the promotion of adulterous activities sin?
• Are polygamous activities sins?    Is the promotion of polygamous activities sin?
• Are sadistic activities sins?    Is the promotion of sadistic activities sin?
• Are masochistic activities sins?    Is the promotion of masochistic activities sin?
• Are abortions sins?    Is the promotion of abortion sin?
• Is euthanasia a sin?    Is the promotion of euthanasia sin?
• Is assisted suicide a sin?    Is the promotion of assisted suicide sin?
• Is prostitution a sin?    Is the promotion of prostitution sin?
• Is incest a sin?    Is the promotion of incest sin?
• Is bestiality a sin?    Is the promotion of bestiality sin?
• Are urine-related perversions sins?    Is the promotion of urine-related perversions sin?
• Is coprophilia a sin?    Is the promotion of coprophilia sin?
• Is necrophilia a sin?    Is the promotion of necrophilia sin?
• Are 'NAMBLA' behaviors and activities sins?    Is the promotion of 'NAMBLA' behaviors and activities sin?
• Is pedophilia a sin?    Is the promotion of pedophilia sin?
• Is the priestly sexual abuse of minors a sin?    Is the promotion of the priestly sexual abuse of minors sin?
• Is it right or wrong to sin?    Is it right or wrong to promote sin?
• Is it right or wrong to assess and discern (judge) what the Catholic Church plainly teaches about all these sinful things?

This can show more clearly why we can't avoid judging what behaviors are sinful behaviors, and we can't give our own approval to anyone promoting sinful behaviors (like the NBC marchers who are going to openly promote the sin of homosexuality in next year's St. Patrick's Day Parade for the first time).

Cardinal Dolan failed when he said "Bravo! Good for him!" when that football player publicly revealed his active sinful homosexual lifestyle, and Cardinal Dolan failed when he said he was fine with people promoting sinful homosexual behaviors in the St. Patrick's Parade.

Cardinal Dolan should not be kicked out of the Church, but I believe he should be removed from his prominent teaching position, so he cannot continue to mislead millions of viewers, listeners, and readers with his blatantly erroneous statements, which go against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

(And while those questions were all hypothetical and were meant to just illustrate more clearly what is wrong with affirming the sin of homosexuality, and what is wrong with approving the promotion of that sin of homosexuality in any forum, once they get people openly promoting the sin of homosexuality in that parade, they will not have a logical reason to ban people promoting ANY of those sinful perversions (or any other sins) in future parades.)

[Darteaus94025]

Would you witness to an adulterer?

[WayneS]

Ah, I see.

They’ll simply create a new, lame, list of sins.

[CynicalBear]

>>Would you witness to an adulterer?<<

Maybe you didn't read the text. Let's try it again with bolding.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

[Darteaus94025]

I did read your response, and thanks for the quotes. I always enjoy reading Scripture.

BTW, I was asking what you personally would do, and I’m guessing from your response that you would witness to an adulterer.

Thanks, and God bless.