Posted on 08/13/2014 6:50:52 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
1 Timothy 5:17, James 5:14-15, and other verses refer to the (ordained) ministerial priesthood. 1 Peter 2:9 refers to the "priesthood" of the laity. The ministers handle preaching and the Sacraments. The laity simply participate. Scripture makes a strong distinction.ierateuma/hierateuma (lay priesthood, Greek, Strong's #2406) [1 Peter 2:9, Lexicon]
sacerdotium (lay priesthood, Latin) [1 Peter 2:9]
presbuteroi/presbyteros (ministerial priesthood, Greek, Strong's #4245) [1 Timothy 5:17, James 5:14-15, Lexicon]
presbyteri/presbyteros (ministerial priesthood, Latin) [1 Timothy 5:17, James 5:14-15]
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“They were selling “indulgences”!”
That was corrupt, but it was only as bad as it was, and no worse.
Odd that. He uses Strong's number but not his definition? From the Strong's in my eSword:
presbuterospres-boo'-ter-os
Comparative of πρέσβυς presbus (elderly); older; as noun, a senior; specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian “presbyter”: - elder (-est), old.
Hmmmmm, not a hint of any ministerial or sacerdotal dimensions to the word.
You take this verse out of context (meeting together as fellow Christians) if you imply that it infers an earthly priesthood that we MUST go through to see God. Now that would be a caricature.
Same to ya,
Peace/.
AMEN!
Nope. It just says we need to meet and not give up on fellowshipping. Nothing in there implied or explicit about priesthood. Just the duty of Christian love, which cannot be expressed in a vacuum.
If the catholic church was wrong for 2000 years that would leave you in a precarious situation. For 1500 years there was only the catholic church. The council’s, the Bible, the deposit of faith has been preserved for 2000 years by the catholic church which you claim is wrong.
Even Luther questioned himself asking if he made a mistake because now every milkmaid would be interpreting scripture to ones own purpose.
That’s what the fruit of the protestant revolt brought, everybody interpreting scripture to suit their own purposes. Today Christian’s believe in, and Christian churches are marrying sodomites. Abortion is accepted by people claiming to be Christian, including apostate catholics.
There is either one truth or there is no truth.
“There is either one truth or there is no truth.”
Precisely! We agree! And that truth is God’s Word. And no, the Catholic church did not write the NT. God used them to canonize it. After that was done, it’s done. The Catholic church is not allowed to alter God’s Word by edict.
“Even Luther questioned himself asking if he made a mistake because now every milkmaid would be interpreting scripture to ones own purpose.”
That’s where the Holy Spirit comes in! Believers have no need for a divine hierarchy and higher-ups you bow down to and wearing rings you kiss. (Christ got down on His hands and knees and washed feet; the Popes stand there and have people bow to them. What nonsense!)
We need the Lord and each other. Every one born again is a priest before Him, to minister to each other with the gifts the Holy Spirit gives.
One shining light in the Catholic church was Mother Teresa. She loved not because she was a Catholic. She loved Christ and the poor because she was filled with the Spirit of Christ. Her love was evident. You can see the Spirit of Christ working through such a one.
I know that many, many Catholics are truly His and filled with Christ. But they are not that way because of the Catholic hierarchy. They are that way because they have met the Savior and have been touched by His love.
“Today Christian’s believe in, and Christian churches are marrying sodomites.”
And those apostate “churches” are approved of by the vast majority of Bible-believing churches.
Among Southern Baptists there have been, from time to time, churches that started going apostate by embracing sin. Each time the local association takes the necessary steps to kick those churches out. I can’t speak for other denominations, but Southern Baptists are pretty swift at disfellowshipping churches that go rogue.
Oh, sure. The infamous Borgia Pope was going to reform the church? He’d have had to start by removing himself!
“If the catholic church was wrong for 2000 years that would leave you in a precarious situation. For 1500 years there was only the catholic church. The council’s, the Bible, the deposit of faith has been preserved for 2000 years by the catholic church which you claim is wrong.”
For how many thousands of years was Israel backsliding and disobeying God? Yet, we still have the Old Testament preserved, miraculously. I don’t think the failures of men can stand in the way of God’s work.
Here’s a good summary:
“While the traditional fundamentals of the Church were reaffirmed, there were noticeable changes to answer complaints that the Counter-Reformers were, tacitly, willing to admit were legitimate. Among the conditions to be corrected by Catholic reformers was the growing divide between the clerics and the laity; many members of the clergy in the rural parishes, after all, had been poorly educated. Often, these rural priests did not know Latin and lacked opportunities for proper theological training (addressing the education of priests had been a fundamental focus of the humanist reformers in the past). Parish priests were to be better educated in matters of theology and apologetics, while Papal authorities sought to educate the faithful about the meaning, nature and value of art and liturgy, particularly in monastic churches (Protestants had criticised them as “distracting”). Notebooks and handbooks became more common, describing how to be good priests and confessors.
Thus, the Council of Trent attempted to improve the discipline and administration of the Church. The worldly excesses of the secular Renaissance Church, epitomized by the era of Alexander VI (1492–1503), intensified during the Reformation under Pope Leo X (1513–1522), whose campaign to raise funds in the German states to rebuild St. Peter’s Basilica by supporting use of indulgences served as a key impetus for Martin Luther’s 95 Theses. The Catholic Church responded to these problems by a vigorous campaign of reform, inspired by earlier Catholic reform movements that predated the Council of Constance (1414–1417): humanism, devotionalism, legalism and the observantine tradition.
The Council, by virtue of its actions, repudiated the pluralism of the secular Renaissance which had previously plagued the Church: the organization of religious institutions was tightened, discipline was improved, and the parish was emphasized. The appointment of Bishops for political reasons was no longer tolerated. In the past, the large landholdings forced many bishops to be “absent bishops” who at times were property managers trained in administration. Thus, the Council of Trent combated “absenteeism,” which was the practice of bishops living in Rome or on landed estates rather than in their dioceses. The Council of Trent also gave bishops greater power to supervise all aspects of religious life. Zealous prelates, such as Milan’s Archbishop Carlo Borromeo (1538–1584), later canonized as a saint, set an example by visiting the remotest parishes and instilling high standards.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Reformation
“There is two Christian Churches, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Protestant faiths are not churches. The Reformation ended that.”
Funny, your Catholic doctrine contradicts the idea that there are two churches, and that the Protestants aren’t included:
” 817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”272
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”276 “
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
Still waiting for you to tell me why your protestant brothers Angelicans, Lutherans and Presbyterians wear vestments.
As Paul Harvey would say “Now for the rest of the story”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Reformation
The Council upheld the basic structure of the Medieval Church, its sacramental system, religious orders, and doctrine. It rejected all compromise with the Protestants, restating basic tenets of the Roman Catholic faith. The Council upheld salvation appropriated by grace through faith and works of that faith (not just by faith, as the Protestants insisted) because “faith without works is dead”, as the Epistle of St. James states (2:22-26). Transubstantiation, according to which the consecrated bread and wine are held to have been transformed really and substantially into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, was also reaffirmed, as were the traditional seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church. Other practices that drew the ire of Protestant reformers, such as pilgrimages, the veneration of saints and relics, the use of venerable images and statuary, and the veneration of the Virgin Mary were strongly reaffirmed as spiritually commendable practices. The Council officially accepted the Vulgate listing of the Old Testament Bible which included the deuterocanonical works (also called the Apocrypha by Protestants) on a par with the 39 books customarily found in the Masoretic Text. This reaffirmed the previous Council of Rome and Synods of Carthage (both held in the 4th century, A.D.) which had affirmed the Deuterocanon as Scripture.[2] The Council also commissioned the Roman Catechism, which still serves as authoritative Church teaching.
“Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released yesterday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation”.
Seems you Catholics can’t even figure out amongst yourselves a consistent answer to the question then. Might want to work on that before you try to lecture the rest of us.
The point is if you’re born into ignorance it’s not your fault if you’re not a Catholic. And these people can be saved, but the fullness of the faith and the fastest way to salvation is through the Holy Catholic Church, the only faith started by Christ himself. The protestants and non-Catholics that will face the wrath of God are the ones that continually put down and cut down His church. FR is infested with these types.
“The protestants and non-Catholics that will face the wrath of God are the ones that continually put down and cut down His church.”
Well, I wouldn’t presume to know how God will dispense His wrath, but if you feel you can speak for Him, I guess that’s your prerogative.
No, I don’t think we agree.
I don’t understand how you can say that we agree when so many Christians do not agree. For instance, why are some Christian churches marrying sodomites? Some who claim to be Christian believe this is acceptable, some do not. Who is right? Where do you stand on that issue? If you are against it, how can you tell people who believe it’s OK that they are wrong?
Well then we agree.
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