Posted on 06/14/2014 4:58:45 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
In the fundamentalist Bible church I attended as a child we would regularly have long sermons about the “end times”. These were based on an interpretative system of the Bible called “Dispensationalism”.
The roots of this theology were the idea that history could be broken down into various “dispensations” or time periods and that God behaved differently and different things happened to the human race in these different dispensations. Part of this teaching was that the “rapture” would take place in which all the Christian people would be supernaturally whisked up into heaven and the sinners would remain behind. Thus the “Left Behind” series of books and films.
Oh good....glad you won’t continue to cite that as an unresolved “problem”.
My source is Yeshua HaMashiach, in Matthew 5.
Fear is not your friend!
I never said that Jesus coming as a thief wasn't the second coming of Christ.
Your problem is what I've said from the start: reconciling Christ's return as a thief that nobody sees and yet as lightning that everyone sees.
...and that nasty "wrath" thing.
>> “Jesus coming as “a thief in the night” (1 Thess 5:2)” <<
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Paul told the Thessalonians that he would not come to them as a thief, because they kept his feasts, and thus would know when to expect his coming.
He also told them that Yeshua could not come until the “Man of Sin” came first, and stood on the Ark and declared himself to be God.
In Revelation 3 he declared that he would come as a thief to those that “will not watch.”
Paul told the Corinthians exactly when Yeshua would come: “At the last trump,” which is the exact end of Satan’s great tribulation of Yeshua’s elect.
All that we need to know is right there in the word. Yeshua’s coming is not nor ever has been “imminent,” that is Satan’s proudest lie, to cause the elect to accept the mark.
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>> “there are NO Biblical verses that show that Christ permits his church to suffer his wrath” <<
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True, but he did promise that we would suffer Satan’s Tribulation, which is specifically for Yeshua’s people. But he did provide that those that keep his commandments will be kept safe from that tribulation, but here on Earth, not taken out. (the letter to the Philadelphian church)
Paul by the Holy Spirit is expressly saying he WILL come as a thief.
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame (Rev 16:15).
He is also coming as a thief for those who are "blessed" (his people).
Jesus is coming FOR his people "as a thief" and seven years later comes WITH his people ("Behold he comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment upon all" (Jude 1:14-15; see also Rev 19:14,19)) as lightening for all to see.
Scripture describes the Tribulation the time of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:16) and "the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture" (Rev 14:10).
The church is simply not going to be included in God's wrath and judgment on the unbelieving and godless world.
The judgment and wrath on our sins has already been executed 2000 years ago on the cross of Christ. God's wrath and fury is meant for the antichrist world, not Christ's beloved. forgiven, blood-washed church. No only would this serve no purpose, it would be unrighteous for God to include his Church with the punishment and wrath that has already been imputed and executed on the body of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.
You have to come to grips with two things.
1. That Yeshua promised that his followers would be tribulated and killed. WE cannot avoid this except during the trib, those that keep his commandments will be taken to a special location here on Earth.
During the present period, his true followers are indeed being tribulated and killed, as can be seen in the news every day.
2. The tribulation is by Satan, not Yehova, and its sole purpose is to torment Yeshua’s followers.
Yehova’s wrath begins at the end of the trib, after his bride has been resurrected at the last trump, just like he plainly said in Matthew 24. The bowls are Yehova’s wrath on those that worshiped the beast.
Yeshua promised the Philadelphian church that he would protect those that kept his Torah during the trib, but not that he would take them out of the Earth.
Finally, it is Yeshua’s death and shed blood on the cross, not his physical punishment that pays for sin. He is our Passover Lamb. His stripes are only for our healing. (Isaiah 53:5, 1Peter 2:24)
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He will not “come as a thief” to those that “watch.”
Those that watch know that he can only come on the day of trumpets, and those that always keep his feasts will already know when he will arrive, because they will be counting the 1335 days from when Antichrist appeared.
Those that were taken in by Satan’s “pre-trib rapture” may by then have taken the mark, since they will foolishly believe that they were left behind when they see the antichrist stand on the ark.
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2. No, Scripture specifically refers to the Tribulation as the wrath and judgement of the Lamb and God. As always, Satan is a tool in God's hands only THIS time, Satan prevails, but only for a very short time
Yehova’s wrath begins at the end of the trib, after his bride has been resurrected at the last trump, just like he plainly said in Matthew 24. The bowls are Yehova’s wrath on those that worshiped the beast.
This is certainly NOT the beginning of God's wrath according to Scripture. The first part of the tribulation is characterized as "the wrath of the Lamb" and the last part is characterized by "the wrath of God poured out without mixture" and includes three and a half years of the seven vials of God's wrath poured out upon the earth.
Yeshua promised the Philadelphian church that he would protect those that kept his Torah during the trib, but not that he would take them out of the Earth.
Your take only. Not consistent with the words of that portion of Scripture itself nor with what follows in Scripture.
Yeshua’s death and shed blood on the cross, not his physical punishment that pays for sin. He is our Passover Lamb. His stripes are only for our healing. (Isaiah 53:5, 1Peter 2:24)
His death and shed blood on the cross WAS a physical punishment which brought in the New Covenant whereby God promises not to remember any of our sins and iniquities which are now covered forever by the blood of the perfect sacrifice of Christ (Heb 8:12, 10:14,17). Our judgment is PAST and there is now NO condemnation or wrath for God's people.
No, He will “come as a thief” FOR those that “watch.”
He said that he will not.
How could he come as a thief to those that are counting the prophesied days?
You do not seem to comprehend the word well.
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>> “No, Scripture specifically refers to the Tribulation as the wrath and judgement of the Lamb” <<
Not in any Bible that I’ve read. Where?
Why no scripture references for your claims?
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>> “ Yeshua promised Israel, not the church, they would be tribulated and killed. This is a tough penalty for not accepting Jesus Christ beforehand.” <<
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Convoluted nonsense!
His Assembly (church as you choose to use it) is primarily Israel:
Matthew 15:
[24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The bulk of his assembly is the tribes of Northern Israel (and those that sojourn with her)
From the beginning of time that is who he was determined to save. He chose a people for his name.
If you love him, the chances are at least 99% that you are descended from the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
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If you do not know the day or the hour, how can you be counting the prophesied days?
I already gave you those references.
Convoluted nonsense!
Whoa, another unsupported assertion followed by and exclamation mark, again as though you're saying it must make it so. Gotta do better than that Bro.
The “church” (a misnomer) is the same as Israel.
Yeshua plainly said in Matthew 15:24 that it is only The House of Israel that he came to save. The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, and those that sojourn with her,(Ezekiel 47:22) are his assembly (that some mistakenly call a church).
Your theology has no basis in scripture whatsoever. You try to divide what Yehova declared would not be divided. Judah is blinded in part, temporarily, but will be united with the rest of Abraham’s seed, and will be saved.
There are no references to what you claim, and that is why you gave none.
>> “If you do not know the day or the hour, how can you be counting the prophesied days?” <<
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The reference to not knowing the day and hour are an ancient Hebrew idiom for the Day of Trumpets, which comes with the sighting of the new moon that begins the seventh biblical month. The statement was not meant to tell us that we couldn’t know, but exactly why we would know.
Antichrist must be made known at Purim, and there are 1335 days prophesied in Revelation, from then to the First Resurrection at Trumpets.
Yes we will be counting those days, and we will know. That is the purpose of his feasts, to tell his elect when things are going to happen. You should read your Bible more carefully, and you would know too.
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