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To: daniel1212

No, there is nothing prior to the gift of Faith. Thinking that Faith is established upon some prior basis, like human reason, or private interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures, is a form of rationalism, and it is the principle fault of protestantism. So you are hitting the nail on the head here, if you can understand this fundamental difference between the Catholic view of Faith and the protestant view, you will be a long way towards making an informed choice.

Any “church” can be measured by the four marks. This is an example of using human reason as a negative rule of Faith, reason does not tell you what you must believe, but it can tell what does not belong. St Francis de Sales covers this in exquisite detail in his book “The Catholic Controversy”.

When I walk into a church in Louisville, and see that it is guarded by centurions from the third century (short little guys!!), I get the immediate sense that the Catholic Church is a family, a family that is one, holy, universal, and apostolic. When I receive the Body of Christ in holy communion, I know that He is with us all days, and that the gates of hell will never prevail against His bride, the Church.

If you think my Faith is superficial, you should probably read my other posts. The one thing that must be kept in mind, despite all the caterwauling that comes from outside the Church, the amount of things one must assent to in matters of Faith and Morals is quite small. As He said, My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.


207 posted on 06/01/2014 8:58:37 AM PDT by blackpacific
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To: blackpacific
...the amount of things one must assent to in matters of Faith and Morals is quite small.

Got a list?

I'll bet lurkers would like to peruse it.

240 posted on 06/01/2014 2:10:27 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: blackpacific
But what is your basis for assurance that Rome is the one true church?

It’s called the gift of Faith. It is by Faith that we are saved, and it is by Faith that we know what to believe.

That is simply superficial. Faith in something must be based upon something.

the true Church is distinguished from false churches by four marks; it is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. Any decent Catholic catechism would explain precisely what those terms mean.

So your assurance that Rome is holy, catholic, and apostolic is based on what the Catholic catechism says?

No, there is nothing prior to the gift of Faith.

I think we may be talking past each other, as i am not saying God does not first draw men, open hearts, and grant repentant faith, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32; Acts 11:18; Eph/. 2:8,9) but that instrumentally God provides evidential warrant for faith.

Thinking that Faith is established upon some prior basis, like human reason, or private interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures, is a form of rationalism, and it is the principle fault of protestantism.

In that case you have a problem with the Lord:

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:11)

And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in thy mouth is truth. (1 Kings 17:24)

if you can understand this fundamental difference between the Catholic view of Faith and the protestant view...,

I do understand better than some RCs. Rather than establishing Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power as did the Lord and early church, (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.), assurance of Truth for RCs is based upon the premise of the assured veracity of Rome, thus they are not to examine the evidence in order to ascertain the veracity of RC teachings, but provide implicit assent of faith and of mind and will.

The RC argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for valid assurance of Truth and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith. (Jn. 14:16; 16:13; Mt. 16:18)

And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus those who dissent from the latter are in rebellion to God.

Which effectively nukes the church.

reason does not tell you what you must believe, but it can tell what does not belong.

Rather, as above, the Lord constantly provided warrant for faith and otherwise appealed to reason as basis for believing and forming judgments.

And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. (John 6:2)

Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? (Luke 12:56-57)

When I walk into a church in Louisville, and see that it is guarded by centurions from the third century (short little guys!!), I get the immediate sense that the Catholic Church is a family, a family that is one, holy, universal, and apostolic.

Sorry, but a church guarded by short little centurions - or gargoyles - is not the type of thing that the church was established upon.

When I receive the Body of Christ in holy communion, I know that He is with us all days, and that the gates of hell will never prevail against His bride, the Church.

Subjective, though such has its place, but thus far you have answered "what is your basis for assurance that Rome is the one true church?" by saying there is no basis, just a gift.

253 posted on 06/01/2014 5:10:58 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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