The Preterists are at it again, I see. Sneaky as always. Ligonier Ministries is a Preterist website. Preterists, you’ll notice, don’t want you knowing that is what they are, they post articles like this about the Church and Israel, which is truth, while hiding the fact that that they are Preterists. This is how they suck people into Preterism.
The Church is the Israel of God - true.
Prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD - utterly false.
Yes, we’ve all heard the quibble, “But I’m a Partial Preterist not a Full Preterist,” as if that gets them off the hook. There is very little difference between the two. A Preterist is a Preterist is a Preterist, period.
Preterism is not historic Christianity. There is no evidence that Papias, Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, etc., believed this doctrine or had ever heard of it. They wrote volumes “against heresies,” they weren’t shy at all about attacking false doctrines. None of the aforementioned believed Christ had came in 70 AD, partially or fully, they were Chiliasts, they saw the first resurrection of Rev. 20 and the rapture as future events, they were post-tribulationists and pre-millennialists.
If there were such an eschatology that taught as its central precept, prophecy had been fulfilled in 70 AD - including Revelation - they assuredly would have dealt with it like they did other heresies - to them, THIS would have been a major heresy. They didn’t attack it, because it hadn’t been invented yet. It’s a modern theory, like Postmillennialism.
>>>The Preterists are at it again, I see. Sneaky as always. Ligonier Ministries is a Preterist website. Preterists, you’ll notice, don’t want you knowing that is what they are, they post articles like this about the Church and Israel, which is truth, while hiding the fact that that they are Preterists. This is how they suck people into Preterism. <<<
>>>The Church is the Israel of God - true.
Prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD - utterly false.<<<
Your insinuations: FALSE!
Anyone who can read can plainly see this article by Dr. Mathison makes no such claims: to the contrary. I checked out the Ligonier website, and the articles I read show that they believe in a future second coming. That is, they believe that the Revelation has not been fulfilled. I researched Keith Mathison, and it appears he is actively against any interpretation that claims the Revelation has been fulfilled. If you are still unconvinced (that is, if you were swayed by this tirade by sasportas,) check out the book, "WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE? A Reformed Response To Hyper-Preterism," which was edited by Dr. Mathison.
May I suggest that if you are going to display an air of self-righteousness, at least do it without sneaky, dishonest insinuations.
Of course, dispensationalism, and futurism generally, cannot be biblically defended (except by the wildly imaginative;) so aspersions must be cast to redirect the conversation away from the truth. I see you have mastered that slanderous technique.
>>>Yes, we’ve all heard the quibble, “But I’m a Partial Preterist not a Full Preterist,” as if that gets them off the hook. There is very little difference between the two.<<<
So, you believe there is little difference in the belief that all prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70, and a future coming of Christ? That is truly a strange comparison. No one with even the slightest grasp of scholarship will believe you.
>>>Preterism is not historic Christianity. There is no evidence that Papias, Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, etc., believed this doctrine or had ever heard of it. They wrote volumes “against heresies,” they weren’t shy at all about attacking false doctrines. None of the aforementioned believed Christ had came in 70 AD, partially or fully, they were Chiliasts, they saw the first resurrection of Rev. 20 and the rapture as future events, they were post-tribulationists and pre-millennialists.<<<
It is a foregone conclusion that you will not find dispensationalism in the early Christian writings. But even one of the most ardent defenders of the new-age cult called dispensationalism, Tommy Ice, has stated that there is early preterism in works of those like Eusebius, whose work, The Proof of the Gospel, is full of preterism regarding the Olivet Discourse. This is an example:
"And from that time a succession of all kinds of troubles afflicted the whole nation and their city until the last war against them, and the final siege, in which destruction (b) rushed on them like a flood with all kinds of misery of famine, plague and sword, and all who had conspired against the Saviour in their youth were cut off; then, too, the abomination of desolation stood in the Temple, and it has remained there even till to-day, while they have daily reached deeper depths of desolation. And perhaps this will be so until the end of the world, according to the limit set by the prophet when he said, 'And unto the consummation of time a fulfilment shall be given to the desolation.'" [Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, W. J. Ferrar translation, MacMillan, NY, 1920, Vol II, Book VIII, p.138]
Eusebius also stated the old testament prophecies have been fulfilled:
"And the importance of my writing does not lie in the fact that it is, as might be suggested, a polemic against the Jews. Perish the thought, far from that! For if they would fairly consider it,- it is really on their side. For as it establishes Christianity on the basis of the antecedent prophecies, so it establishes Judaism from the complete fulfilment of its prophecies." [Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, W. J. Ferrar translation, MacMillan, NY,1920, Vol I, Book I, p.5]
That last statement by Eusebius should not be so alarming to those who have actually read the words of Christ. In the Gospel of Luke, Christ prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem as the fulfillment of all old testament prophecy:
"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22 KJV)
That leaves only the remainder of the new testament prophecy to be fulfilled.
It makes perfect sense that the new covenant would do away with the old, as written in the Hebrews:
"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:7-13 KJV)
The New Covenant is explained to be the New Testament in Hebrews 9, and was created by the blood of Jesus Christ. New-age cults tend to marginalize His sacrifice in their attempts to Judaize Christianity.
>>>If there were such an eschatology that taught as its central precept, prophecy had been fulfilled in 70 AD - including Revelation - they assuredly would have dealt with it like they did other heresies - to them, THIS would have been a major heresy. They didn’t attack it, because it hadn’t been invented yet. It’s a modern theory, like Postmillennialism.<<<
That is typical new-age, cult-style deception. Note, everyone, that sasportas never proves that Ligonier believes that the Revelation has been fulfilled. He simple makes a didactic proclamation (with no proof whatsoever,) and expects the gullible to accept it. Shame.
It is time everyone understands where dispensationalists/futurists are coming from! When the truth is revealed: that the Olivet Discourse, and most of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, was referring to the early Church and the destruction of Jerusalem, their house of cards will come crashing down, accompanied by a hardy "good riddance."
Philip
I couldn't let that misconception slide. In a previous post I referenced partial-preterism from Eusebius. In this post I will present partial-preterist commentary from several early Church Fathers; and all can be verified online at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library (CCEL;) http://www.ccel.org. All books listed are according to the CCEL naming schemes.
This is Justin Martyr, AD 100-165:
"And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: 'For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.' And it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For out of Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the world of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we might not lie or deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ." [The First Apology of Justin, Chapter XXXVIII, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 1]
"And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid." [The First Apology of Justin, Chapter XI, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 1]
Irenaeus, AD 130-200
"If any one, however, advocating the cause of the Jews, does maintain that this new covenant consisted in the rearing of that temple which was built under Zerubbabel after the emigration to Babylon, and in the departure of the people from thence after the lapse of seventy years, let him know that the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord's advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight." [Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter XXXIV, Par 4, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 1]
1. … Even as Esaias saith, “The children of Jacob shall strike root, and Israel shall flourish, and the whole world shall be filled with his fruit.” The fruit, therefore, having been sown throughout all the world, she (Jerusalem) was deservedly forsaken, and those things which had formerly brought forth fruit abundantly were taken away; for from these, according to the flesh, were Christ and the apostles enabled to bring forth fruit. But now these are no longer useful for bringing forth fruit. For all things which have a beginning in time must of course have an end in time also.
2.Since, then, the law originated with Moses, it terminated with John as a necessary consequence. Christ had come to fulfil it: wherefore "the law and the prophets were" with them "until John." And therefore Jerusalem, taking its commencement from David, and fulfilling its own times, must have an end of legislation when the new covenant was revealed. " [Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter IV, Par 2, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 1]
"CHAP. VII.--RECAPITULATION OF THE FOREGOING ARGUMENT, SHOWING THAT ABRAHAM, THROUGH THE REVELATION OF THE WORD, KNEW THE FATHER, AND THE COMING OF THE SON OF GOD. FOR THIS CAUSE, HE REJOICED TO SEE THE DAY OF CHRIST, WHEN THE PROMISES MADE TO HIM SHOULD BE FULFILLED. THE FRUIT OF THIS REJOICING HAS FLOWED TO POSTERITY, VIZ., TO THOSE WHO ARE PARTAKERS IN THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM, BUT NOT TO THE JEWS WHO REJECT THE WORD OF GOD. . . .
2. For not alone upon Abraham's account did He say these things, but also that He might point out how all who have known God from the beginning, and have foretold the advent of Christ, have received the revelation from the Son Himself; who also in the last times was made visible and passable, and spake with the human race, that He might from the stones raise up children unto Abraham, and fulfil the promise which God had given him, and that He might make his seed as the stars of heaven,(5) as John the Baptist says: "For God is able from these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."(6) Now, this Jesus did by drawing us off from the religion of stones, and bringing us over from hard and fruitless cogitations, and establishing in us a faith like to Abraham. As Paul does also testify, saying that we are children of Abraham because of the similarity of our faith, and the promise of inheritance." Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter VII, Title and Par 2, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 1]"
Hegesippus (from Eusebius) on the martyrdom of James the Just:
"James, the Lord's brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time . . . The aforesaid scribes and Pharisees accordingly set James on the summit of the temple, and cried aloud to him, and said: "O just one, whom we are all bound to obey, forasmuch as the people is in error, and follows Jesus the crucified, do thou tell us what is the door of Jesus, the crucified." And he answered with a loud voice: "Why ask ye me concerning Jesus the Son of man? He Himself sitteth in heaven, at the right hand of the Great Power, and is about to come on the clouds of heaven."" [The Church History of Eusebius, Book II, Chapter XXIII, Para 4, 12, 13, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol I]
Clement of Alexandria, AD 150-220:
"And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said." [The Stromata, Or Miscellanies. Book I, Ch XXI, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 2]
Pseudo-Clement (attributed to Clement of Alexandria):
"But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ." And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken. [The Clementine Homilies, Book III, Chapter XV, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 8]
This is a partial list. There are many more examples of early partial-preterism among the early Church Fathers.
Philip