>>>The Preterists are at it again, I see. Sneaky as always. Ligonier Ministries is a Preterist website. Preterists, you’ll notice, don’t want you knowing that is what they are, they post articles like this about the Church and Israel, which is truth, while hiding the fact that that they are Preterists. This is how they suck people into Preterism. <<<
>>>The Church is the Israel of God - true.
Prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD - utterly false.<<<
Your insinuations: FALSE!
Anyone who can read can plainly see this article by Dr. Mathison makes no such claims: to the contrary. I checked out the Ligonier website, and the articles I read show that they believe in a future second coming. That is, they believe that the Revelation has not been fulfilled. I researched Keith Mathison, and it appears he is actively against any interpretation that claims the Revelation has been fulfilled. If you are still unconvinced (that is, if you were swayed by this tirade by sasportas,) check out the book, "WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE? A Reformed Response To Hyper-Preterism," which was edited by Dr. Mathison.
May I suggest that if you are going to display an air of self-righteousness, at least do it without sneaky, dishonest insinuations.
Of course, dispensationalism, and futurism generally, cannot be biblically defended (except by the wildly imaginative;) so aspersions must be cast to redirect the conversation away from the truth. I see you have mastered that slanderous technique.
>>>Yes, we’ve all heard the quibble, “But I’m a Partial Preterist not a Full Preterist,” as if that gets them off the hook. There is very little difference between the two.<<<
So, you believe there is little difference in the belief that all prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70, and a future coming of Christ? That is truly a strange comparison. No one with even the slightest grasp of scholarship will believe you.
>>>Preterism is not historic Christianity. There is no evidence that Papias, Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, etc., believed this doctrine or had ever heard of it. They wrote volumes “against heresies,” they weren’t shy at all about attacking false doctrines. None of the aforementioned believed Christ had came in 70 AD, partially or fully, they were Chiliasts, they saw the first resurrection of Rev. 20 and the rapture as future events, they were post-tribulationists and pre-millennialists.<<<
It is a foregone conclusion that you will not find dispensationalism in the early Christian writings. But even one of the most ardent defenders of the new-age cult called dispensationalism, Tommy Ice, has stated that there is early preterism in works of those like Eusebius, whose work, The Proof of the Gospel, is full of preterism regarding the Olivet Discourse. This is an example:
"And from that time a succession of all kinds of troubles afflicted the whole nation and their city until the last war against them, and the final siege, in which destruction (b) rushed on them like a flood with all kinds of misery of famine, plague and sword, and all who had conspired against the Saviour in their youth were cut off; then, too, the abomination of desolation stood in the Temple, and it has remained there even till to-day, while they have daily reached deeper depths of desolation. And perhaps this will be so until the end of the world, according to the limit set by the prophet when he said, 'And unto the consummation of time a fulfilment shall be given to the desolation.'" [Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, W. J. Ferrar translation, MacMillan, NY, 1920, Vol II, Book VIII, p.138]
Eusebius also stated the old testament prophecies have been fulfilled:
"And the importance of my writing does not lie in the fact that it is, as might be suggested, a polemic against the Jews. Perish the thought, far from that! For if they would fairly consider it,- it is really on their side. For as it establishes Christianity on the basis of the antecedent prophecies, so it establishes Judaism from the complete fulfilment of its prophecies." [Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, W. J. Ferrar translation, MacMillan, NY,1920, Vol I, Book I, p.5]
That last statement by Eusebius should not be so alarming to those who have actually read the words of Christ. In the Gospel of Luke, Christ prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem as the fulfillment of all old testament prophecy:
"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22 KJV)
That leaves only the remainder of the new testament prophecy to be fulfilled.
It makes perfect sense that the new covenant would do away with the old, as written in the Hebrews:
"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:7-13 KJV)
The New Covenant is explained to be the New Testament in Hebrews 9, and was created by the blood of Jesus Christ. New-age cults tend to marginalize His sacrifice in their attempts to Judaize Christianity.
>>>If there were such an eschatology that taught as its central precept, prophecy had been fulfilled in 70 AD - including Revelation - they assuredly would have dealt with it like they did other heresies - to them, THIS would have been a major heresy. They didn’t attack it, because it hadn’t been invented yet. It’s a modern theory, like Postmillennialism.<<<
That is typical new-age, cult-style deception. Note, everyone, that sasportas never proves that Ligonier believes that the Revelation has been fulfilled. He simple makes a didactic proclamation (with no proof whatsoever,) and expects the gullible to accept it. Shame.
It is time everyone understands where dispensationalists/futurists are coming from! When the truth is revealed: that the Olivet Discourse, and most of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, was referring to the early Church and the destruction of Jerusalem, their house of cards will come crashing down, accompanied by a hardy "good riddance."
Philip
You are the Preterist-Postmill combo, I can’t imagine a worse eschatology, your posts are no more than sophistry in my view, I don’t pay any attention to what you’ve got to say, quite frankly. Consider the source.
As to myself, I am historic premill, I am not dispensationalist.
Re: the Ligonier site, I went to its link in the lead article, first time there, when I saw the site featuring R. C. Sproul, which everybody knows is a prterist, I read no further, I assume Mathison is probably preterist. The site likewise.
What I said about preterists being sneaky, in my personal experiences with them I’ve found to be true. It is like getting blood out of a turnip getting them to admit that is what they are.