I don't solely rely on a "we gave you the Bible" argument when trying to understand what has come to pass. The book of Revelation demonstrates that most of the Asian churches fell short of the mark, but they still had the faith which was once delivered to the saints. and I assume they were part of the holy catholic apostolic church. You could make the Fundamentalist Baptist case here and argue that all churches are local. I think you already rejected the claims that Fundamentalists alone go back in direct apostolic succession to these churches. We know none of the Reformed theology churches do; they were started by men some 1500 years later. Who remains ? Do you propose the Eastern Catholics instead of the Western Catholics ? Would you take the position that the Jewish believers diminished and the Gentile believers misunderstood the Scriptures, drifting into long apostasy ?
ASSUME?
You bet your patootie they were!
If you BELIEVE what the RCC teaches!
Using the Book the Catholics so wonderously preserved.
Thanks again.
But while you claim never having received a rational answer to your polemical question, though i dare say you did, twice now, where is an actual answer to mine. If it is not basically based upon historical descent as the instrument and steward of Scripture, showing Rome as the inheritor of promises of Divine promises and preservation, then what is the basis for assurance that Rome is the one true and infallible church?
The book of Revelation demonstrates that most of the Asian churches fell short of the mark, but they still had the faith which was once delivered to the saints. and I assume they were part of the holy catholic apostolic church.
But the faith which was once delivered to the saints, as manifest in the NT was one that
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1. Never had any pastors titled "priests" as they did not engage in any unique sacrificial function, that of turning bread into human flesh and dispensing it to the people. 2. Never differentiated between bishops and elders, and with grand titles ("Most Reverend Eminence," “Very Reverend,” “Most Illustrious and Most Reverend Lord,” “His Eminence Cardinal,” “The Most Reverend the Archbishop,” etc.) or made such distinct by their ostentatious pompous garb. (Matthew 23:5-7) 3. Never had apostles preaching receiving the Eucharist as the means by which one received spiritual life in themselves, so that without which eating one cannot have eternal life (as per RC literalism, of Jn. 6:53,54), versus believing the gospel, and the Lord's supper as focusing on the church being the body of Christ in showing the Lord sacrificial death by that communal meal. 4. Never required clerical celibacy as the norm, (1Tim. 3:17) which presumes all such have that gift. 5. Never promised a perpetual assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium, or taught this is necessary for preservation of truth, including writings to be established as Scripture, and for assurance of faith, and that historical descent and being the steward of Scripture assured they had assured infallibility. 6. Never manifested where Peter is confirmed to be the "rock" of Mt. 16:18 upon which the church is built, rather than upon the rock of the faith confessed by Peter, thus Christ Himself. 7. Never taught or exampled that all the churches were to look to Peter as the bishop of Rome, as the first of a line of supreme heads reigning over all the churches, and having the last word in questions affecting the whole Church. 8. Never recorded or taught any apostolic successors (like for James: Acts 12:1,2) besides for Judas (who was to maintain the original 12: Rv. 21:14) and who was elected by voting, versus casting lots (no politics). (Acts 1:15ff) 9. Never recorded or manifested (not by conjecture) sprinkling or baptism without repentant personal faith, that being the stated requirement for baptism. (Acts 2:38; 8:36-38) 10. Never preached a gospel of salvation which begins with becoming good enough inside (formally justified due to infused interior charity), via sprinkling or baptism in recognition of proxy faith, and which usually ends with becoming good enough to enter glory via suffering in purgatory, commencing at death. 11. Never had a separate class of believers called “saints.” 12. Never prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or were instructed to (i.e. "our Mother who art in Heaven) who were able to hear and respond to virtually unlimited prayers addressed to them. 13. Never recorded a women who never sinned, and was a perpetual virgin despite being married (contrary to the normal description of marriage, as leave and cleave. ) and who would be bodily assumed to Heaven and exalted as a demigoddess. All of which conspicuous absence is not characteristic of Holy Spirit who reveals notable aspects of its significant subjects, from long life, to escaping death or being bodily assumed to God, to extra toes, to unique diets, to being sinless, etc. 14. Never supported or made laws that restricted personal reading of Scripture by laity (contrary to Chrysostom), if able and available, sometimes even outlawing it when it was. 15. Never used the sword of men to deal with its theological dissenters. 16. Never taught that the deity Muslims worship (who is not as an unknown god) is the same as theirs. I could go on, but this should suffice for now, and its late. |
You could make the Fundamentalist Baptist case here and argue that all churches are local. I think you already rejected the claims that Fundamentalists alone go back in direct apostolic succession to these churches.
None go back in direct formal apostolic succession to these churches. Not Rome with her problematic and often messy "unbroken" (with absences of years and competing anc confusing claimants), as that is not the basis for NT authenticity, and Rome fails of the apostolic credentials.
We know none of the Reformed theology churches do; they were started by men some 1500 years later. Who remains ? Do you propose the Eastern Catholics instead of the Western Catholics ? Would you take the position that the Jewish believers diminished and the Gentile believers misunderstood the Scriptures, drifting into long apostasy ?
The answer to that question is why the questions i asked need to be answered. Let me know.