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Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol
reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

Posted on 04/05/2014 5:57:23 AM PDT by Gamecock

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To: af_vet_1981

The latter phrase “that is what troubles you” is the mind reading part.


261 posted on 04/06/2014 9:53:29 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: daniel1212
You mean like (2 Chronicles 6:14-42: 1028 words)

No, totally scriptural, inspired, and inspiring

Do you think the Sinner's Prayer is scriptural ? Which one?

All the ones that are not quoting texts in Scripture, eg., Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, etc.

Examples from Luke 18 and Matthew 8 are approved.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

262 posted on 04/06/2014 9:54:42 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Religion Moderator
The latter phrase “that is what troubles you” is the mind reading part.

Now I get it; I will rephrase it as a question, "Is that why you object to asking Mary for help, because she is in heaven?"

263 posted on 04/06/2014 9:57:17 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

That would be fine.


264 posted on 04/06/2014 9:58:52 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Is Gamecock the Religion Moderator?


265 posted on 04/06/2014 10:29:13 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: af_vet_1981

You are right. I errantly conflated the Hail Mary with the following KJV text. It was careless reading on my part.

Nevertheless, the Hail Mary, to which I objected, is unsupported as Biblical language, unless one accepts Jerome’s handling of Luke 1:28 as effectively a re-inspration of the same text into Latin with new and significantly different verbiage. In one sense this is identical to the KJV-Onlyist who claims the 1611 KJV is a re-inspiration of the Received Text into English.

Both theories are defective, in that they allow the introduction of novel and incorrect doctrines through human manipulation of the text, which is why reformational Protestants such as myself would tend to reject such theories as fonts of heresy, and press toward the primitive text as far as God enables us.

Your other question concerning approval or non-approval of various translations is a question of ecclesiastical authority, and it goes beyond your original question, which was:

“Can you show me any part of this that is unbiblical or incorrect …”

The authority question has been handled on these threads many times over. I think the RC authority construct is hopelessly circular, but it would probably be redundant and unproductive to go off on that tangent when the question you asked is so much easier to address as a matter of the objective history and content of the text.

To summarize then, there is an entirely Protestant interpretation to all the texts you presented, even the so-called “Hail Mary,” as long as one allows the meaning of the original Greek to prevail. By which I mean that Protestants do see grace in Mary, but her as a recipient of grace, like any other sinner made whole by Christ; and Protestants do see the angel greeting Mary, but with a greeting of rejoicing, not worshipping.

Before you protest, I do understand the purported differences between atria, dulia and hyperdulia, but I do not think the vast majority of rank and file Catholics grasp such fine distinctions, and it puts their souls at risk. I am certain my own Catholic relatives do not. They have merged their feminism with their Marian ideas to create a female deity coequal to Christ. I am sure that is as repugnant to you as it is to me.

However, we have to live our faith, and any doctrines that lead to such dangerous places in practice ought to have the highest degree of Scriptural verification of correctness, for if God says it, no matter how confounding, it must be true. But if God has not said it, woe to that man or woman who presumes to put words in Gods mouth. Eternity is nothing to trifle with.


266 posted on 04/06/2014 10:58:22 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Gamecock
Thank you for the interesting article and review. It's certainly curious how there very rarely can be found unbiased and objective written “history” in the light of the truism that it is usually written by the victors.
267 posted on 04/06/2014 11:09:35 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: af_vet_1981
are apparently denying the Holy Spirit

You appear to be unfamiliar with how Protestant approach the matter of inspiration. We agree with all believers everywhere that God inspired Scripture through His Holy Spirit.

But we do not see that same inspiration in every attempt to translate Scripture. As mentioned above, once you start applying the same level of inspiration to every subsequent translator you subject yourself to the possibility of misconstruing human error for holy writ.

And as a matter of history, God has given us an excellent body of autograph texts to serve as stable reference points for any translation effort. Why should we not use them? They are God's gift to His people.

Which other verses in the Bible do you deny ?

That is in form a loaded question. It is an inferior form of argument, begging the question. I feel certain you are capable of more adroit work. Alter the form to not presume the answer in the question and I will be happy to respond.

268 posted on 04/06/2014 11:09:35 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: LurkingSince'98; Gamecock
If the Catholic Church is an old anachronistic has-been of a religion - why do you have to talk and write about it every chance you get? you are saved - right? So why do you care what some old Catholics think or say or do? What do you call a person who is preoccupied with someone else’s faith ? I got it - a protestant!

Please be sure and ping me the next time you give that advice to your fellow Catholics posting regular threads discussing "Protestantism" here.

269 posted on 04/06/2014 11:13:31 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: af_vet_1981
So your stumbling block is whether Mary was "full of grace" or not.

It's not a stumbling block for me. It's true that Mary was a recipient of great grace. But that fact doesn't have the entourage of inferences that typical Catholic teaching assigns to it, i.e., it doesn't imply sinlessness etc. The problem is that the Hail Mary, esp. as used in its English form, carries nuances that go beyond the teaching of the primitive text. Those "nuances," however weakly inferred, have been codified and presented as the teaching of Rome. That extra baggage is no stumbling block to me. I see it and step around it. But many precious souls are being injured by it. And so I raise my objection.

As for "we," I am simply speaking as a Christian of Protestant heritage. I do not seek to be an official representative of any human institution, but simply wish to be obedient to Scripture:

1Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

270 posted on 04/06/2014 11:23:53 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: goodwithagun
As a Protestant, I can’t stand these Protestants that do this. They even have a creepy ping list for Catholic bashing. It’s embarrassing.

Do you have a similar distaste for the Catholics that do this with regularity here or only when "Protestants" do it?

271 posted on 04/06/2014 11:43:54 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: LurkingSince'98; Gamecock; Religion Moderator
Is Gamecock the Religion Moderator?

Still kicking at the beehive, I see.

272 posted on 04/07/2014 12:33:08 AM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: LurkingSince'98; Gamecock
Is Gamecock the Religion Moderator?


273 posted on 04/07/2014 12:55:16 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy
Perhaps we'll need to draw straws from among all our various multiple personalities since the 8-ball appears to be stonewalling. Again. Stupid 8-ball, he never gives a straight answer...

But how are we going to sort it out? It doesn't matter how many straws are drawn, "we" will always keep getting the short one.

Or is this crazy to have back-and-forth talk between the multiples?

I hear it's not so bad when they are never aware of each other, or try to communicate among themselve(s)...

274 posted on 04/07/2014 2:09:52 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
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To: af_vet_1981
Where is Moses' grave ?

If you believed the Book...


Deuteronomy 34:5-6
5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.


Where is Elijah's grave ? Where is Enoch's grave ?

I find it amazing that Catholicism can toss out these two guys as examples of what COULD HAVE happened to Mary; but refuse to take MOSES as an example of what might have happened.

275 posted on 04/07/2014 2:39:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: af_vet_1981
At least your re-formed theology is not preterist, or Mormon.

Now you've got the lurkers wondering...

Just what is he referring to here with THESE two assertions?

276 posted on 04/07/2014 2:40:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Springfield Reformer
"full of grace" - "Highly favoured"; it mattereth not; for NEITHER can excuse or explain the Catholic church's description of Mary's present POWERS as supernatural.
277 posted on 04/07/2014 2:43:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation
Probably not in your Bible because it was changed to suit your denomination.

No WONDER the bookshelves are SO huge at Zondervan's!

With 45,000 (YMMV) different bibles - all in a row...

278 posted on 04/07/2014 2:45:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: goodwithagun
The irony is not strong with you.

You may be right; but the facts are.

279 posted on 04/07/2014 2:45:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: goodwithagun
What matters is that the owner of this site had to intervene and make a strong stand that Catholics are most welcome here and Catholic bashing is not.

Mighty bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

Have you EVIDENCE of what you claim here?


Since you’ve condemned neither FReepers from claiming Catholics aren’t Christians, do you agree?

Agree with what?

That Catholic FReepers say nast things about non-Catholic ones?

YEs - you are correct.

280 posted on 04/07/2014 2:50:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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