Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[annalex]

there is not any sense of recommendation to pray to "saints" found in that chapter

I agree and I never implied otherwise. The "because" points to the nature of sanctity as a supreme work of God, not to some recommendation in that verse to specifically pray to saints.

Veneration of saints is never directly advised in the Bible, for the simple reason that in order there to be saints in heaven to pray to, a generation of Christian martyrs had to come and obtain martyrdom. That fell outside of the historical scope of the New Testament (with one or two exceptions). We see, however, two harbingers of the veneration of saints: a woman spontaneously venerating Mary and Jesus pointing that there are others likewise worthy of veneration; and the conversation between Jesus and the two Old Testament saints, Moses and Elijah shown to the Apostles at the Transfiguration. Neither episode actually teaches veneration of saints, but it prepares the ground for it to blossom later.

you wish to establish that praying to saints is as God working within a person.

I am sorry. Now and then I take time to give you a good explanation and answer your questions in full, and then I read something like this from you. Where did I say anything similar? I said that praying to a saint simultaneously worships God because it is God Who made the saint. Please tell me you wrote that without thinking, or else do not be surprised if I simply ignore your post, like I ignore some others.

[annalex]

The Catechism is infallible because the teaching of the Catholic Church on faith in its entirety is infallible. The Catechism merely systematizes the teaching.

[annalex]

why you pinged me

When I respond to any post, I copy, quite mechanically, the visible part of the addressee list in my "Reply To" box. For example, I just copied "; daniel1212; BlueDragon; Springfield Reformer; boatbums" because they appear on your post to me.

Jerome condemned and rejected the apocrypha

Not quite, since he translated them. He did not like tham but that was his opinion overridden by the Church, and in the end he obeyed the Church. That is why he is a saint in heaven.

Are you suggesting that Jerome was inspired to correct a defect in some Apostle's writing?

That the Luke 1:28 translation "gratia plena" is inspired since "κεχαριτωμενη" does not have a direct Latin equivalent. I am aware that Jerome made some mistakes in his translation, but overall it is inspired work, even if not infallible.

[annalex]

No it is not; don’t call the Holy Church “whore” and you’ll have a chance to be taken seriously.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Not quite, since he translated them. He did not like tham but that was his opinion overridden by the Church, and in the end he obeyed the Church. That is why he is a saint in heaven.

Actually, Jerome's commentaries on the reason why they are not to be used for the purposes of doctrine were included with translations even up to Trent, approved by Popes. Jerome's view prevailed for centuries, and represents the real consensus of the church, which was, that the apocrypha was to be used for the edification of morals, but not for the purposes of creating doctrine.

When and if a Muslim is saved, he is saved through Jesus Christ only, so don't worry about others.We'll be all Catholic in Heaven.

A blasphemous repetition. A muslim, by definition, does not believe in Jesus Christ, and is therefore damned. The only way a Muslim is saved, is if he ceases to be Muslim and becomes a Christian prior to his death. This is the testimony of all scripture, and cannot be denied.

[metmom]

so explain the mocking when your are at your own particular judgement....

So how do you know what people are going to have to answer for when standing before Christ?

[metmom]

Since the Church is the ONLY way to know Jesus and be saved, the Church often sounds “arrogant”. In fact, she even should.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 3:34 He has no use for conceited people, but shows favor to those who are humble.

James 6:4 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

[metmom]

The knowledge of human dignity and virtue originates exclusively in the Church because Jesus taught the Church first, but of course some of it was adopted by various religious communities outside of it, such as Protestants, Mormons, modern Jews, and the Lodge.

Nonsense.

It began with Jesus. Period.

Catholics need to stop taking credit for the work of God. He will share his glory with no other.

[metmom]

The truths of Scripture.

The Catholic church doesn’t teach many truths.

Most of their teaching does not line up with Scripture.

[Elsie]

blather

[Elsie]

Where ya been dude?
We had some good give and take in the past.

I hope all is well with you and family.

[Elsie]

Then why are you polluting this thread with inanities?

Did you mean this for Lurkin'?

[Elsie]

There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Now THERE's the teaching we Prots all know and love!!

[Elsie]

Thus; circular logic.

[Elsie]

The knowledge of human dignity and virtue originates exclusively in the Church because Jesus taught the Church first, but of course some of it was adopted by various religious communities outside of it, such as Protestants, Mormons, modern Jews, and the Lodge.

I'm quite sure that other learned folks would disagree with this statement.

[af_vet_1981]

It is said Martin Luther was crawling on his knees up the stone steps of the Castle church for penance when the verse came to his mind, "The just shall live by his faith." (Habakkuk 2:4). He got off his knees and proceeded to produce his "95 Theses" which began his journey to genuine faith and contributed mightily to the cause of the Reformation.

I view Martin Luther more critically, holding him personally responsible for most of German antisemitism and significantly responsible for the Thirty Years War.
1. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are - to avoid Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them; to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians; for Jewish religious writings to be taken away; for rabbis to be forbidden to preach; to not offer protection for Jews on highways; for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping and given back to Jews who truly convert; and to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, spindle, and let them earn their bread in the sweat of their noses.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history."[8]
2. Although the Peace of Augsburg created a temporary end to hostilities, it did not resolve the underlying religious conflict, which was made yet more complex by the spread of Calvinism throughout Germany in the years that followed.[15] This added a third major faith to the region, but its position was not recognized in any way by the Augsburg terms, to which only Catholicism and Lutheranism were parties.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Elsie]

It is by (not through) Jesus our Savior, Whom you know from the Catholic Church, or not know if you deny the truths of the Catholic Church.

Acts 8:26-39

²⁶ Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. ²⁷ And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship ²⁸ and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. ²⁹ And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” ³⁰ So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” ³¹ And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. ³² Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
    and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
    so he opens not his mouth.
³³ In his humiliation justice was denied him.
    Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

³⁴ And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” ³⁵ Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. ³⁶ And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” ³⁸ And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. ³⁹ And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

[Elsie]

It is by (not through) Jesus our Savior, Whom you know from the Catholic Church, or not know if you deny the truths of the Catholic Church.

I do not deny any truth that the RCC has!

I do, however, deny speculation and guessing.

[Elsie]

Often what people mean to say is that one educated about Catholic faith yet clinging to Protestant heresies is in grave danger of perdition.

I've lost my list.

Could you re-post them??

[Elsie]

In both these episodes Christ points out that other disciples may also become saints and be venerated alongside Mary.

Funny; I missed yet another lesson.

Could you re-post the Scripture that shows this?