Posted on 03/31/2014 7:35:15 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
A.) When the vote was taken on July 1870, at the First Vatican Council, with 433 votes in favour (placet) and only 2 against (non placet) against defining as dogma the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra, did those Bishops possess infallibility when (or at least only when) voting? Did any of them keep this infallibility (did it remain with all of them or any of them) after they left and returned home? Did any of these Bishops possess any infallibility at anytime before the vote was cast?
B.) Was Mary's (the Mother of Jesus) mother immaculately conceived as Mary was? Was Mary's grandmother immaculately conceived, too? If so, was there near-infinite regression of these immaculate conceptions? If so, how far back did these immaculate conceptions go? If they did not go back farther than two, why were only two and not say three or four immaculate conceptions needed?
C.) When the Apostle Paul confronted Peter (when Peter was being hypocritical concerning his eating with Jews and Gentiles), did the Apostle Paul possess infallibility when stating that Gentiles did NOT have to be circumcised as a requisite for being a Christian? If so, how many other Apostles possessed infallibility in their actions that were later recorded in the Book of Acts?
D.) During the time of the Western Great Schism of 1378, if papal infallibility was in existence at that time (and only later just codified), how could any person who was not one of the two Popes infallibly know (if they did not possess any measure of infallibility) which POpe was legitimate until this was later worked out? What about that period of time? Were people left "twisting in the wind?"
BFLR
No, why would I. I don’t care. I did give a link to a partial list on Wikipedia. They note that there are reported to be about 41,000 Christian churches.
” Note: This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a comprehensible overview of the diversity among denominations of Christianity. As there are reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian denominations (figure includes overlap between countries),[3] many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
There are certainly thousands even tens of thousands. What difference does it make? None to me.
The general outline of the response is that in drawing the distinction between formal logic and divine logic and in drawing conclusions from it are you
(1) Using human or divine logic? (2) Saying something true?
You can see how the discussion would flow from there.
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Many Protestants are absolutely convinced of human depravity, me included.
It's the meaning, consequences, and extent (in other words, the fine print) where the conversation gets interesting.
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I agree that God is free from constraints but He cannot act in ways that are contrary to His nature. So, in that sense He is constrained by His own nature.
We are in agreement. If one can only do good, some will see that as a limitation. Others will see it as pure freedom.
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As to the intercession of the saints, let's not go there today. It's been done to death a thousand times.
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I read nothing in Scripture that proclaims Mary to be the Seat of Wisdom, and I have no reason to think of her as such.
I read nothing in Scripture that says that Jesus sat in Mary's lap. I suppose he did. And I do find (1 Cor. 1:24) tat Christ is the "Wisdom of God." So IF he sat in her lap, then at least for a while she was the seat of Wisdom.
Two questions for a question. You must have the answers then.
I do.
No. no need for regression back through the generations. Only one person was immaculately conceived. Mary. In her mother’s womb.
Yes, Settled Dogma. At least in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
BTW:
I have read the Bible. I have read the entire St. Joseph version of the New Testament in High School during my Junior year. We read the Bible as well the Catholic Churches interpretation of the bible and how all the Churches Sacraments and Dogmatic teachings are all Biblically based.
It was part of the religious instruction at the Catholic High School I attended and EVERY pupil Catholic or non Catholic was required to do so and receive Catholic instruction.
I don’t recall everything I was taught. Suffice to say that they had answers to any question you could ever come up with. It is simply up to you to accept it or deny it. They can not force you to believe.
The reason why reading the Bible is insufficient is because the Bible is often confusing and even seemingly contradictory. Why do you think there are so many biblically based Protestant religions? If their was only one interpretation, why so many different churches?
The one thing in common with all Protestant religions is that they are not Catholic.
If it doesn’t make a difference, they why did you even post it to begin with? That doesn’t make much sense to me. Unless you were trying to prove something. If so, you didn’t.
I first learned that Jesus had brothers and sisters in a Bible study class taught by a CATHOLIC PRIEST. I was very fortunate and blessed to be taught by priest who taught the Bible as it is written and did not make things up. Here are some other facts:
1) There is NO mention in the Bible that Mary herself was conceived of an immaculate conception. This is something made up out whole cloth.
2) There is NO mention that Mary was ALWAYS a virgin. She was married to Joseph and other children followed Jesus, including James. This IS mentioned in the Bible.
3) There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Bible requiring celibacy as a precondition for service in the priesthood. In point of fact, priests in the Bible were married men with children as were the early popes, bishops, and priests well into the Middle Ages.
A genuine religion is based upon the historical record. The Judeo-Christian tradition is based upon historical events-—real people who actually lived in defined places at certain times in history.
When you start making things up out of whole cloth, such a religion then begins to resemble the mythology akin to the ancient Roman, Greek, and Egyptian religions.
Better to stick with the Bible and the historical record than to make things up.
Good for us that we don’t teach that celibacy is required for priests.
There are married priests.
Did you know that?
Too many assumptions. Something can be absent from the canonical Scriptures and still be (a) part of the historical record, (b) not made up from whole cloth.
YES I DO!!!!!
We have married priests here in our archdiocese...mostly converts from the Episcopalian Church.
And these priests are just as good as the single celibate priests and every bit as dedicated.
In the Ukrainian Catholic Church priests are permitted to be married.
And of course,our cousin priests in the Eastern Orthodox Church are also permitted to marry.
I am not a theologian, scholar, prophet, priest/minister, or teacher; so, I have no need or desire to go beyond my complete acceptance of human depravity as a condition of human life. My faith is simple but not simplistic, fundamental but not fundamentalist.
God's inability to act outside His own nature could be considered a limitation in human terms but probably not in Divine. I say probably because the issue (I think) is open to debate. I am not equipped to debate it.
I hope saints will intercede for me, but I will not ask them to. I think that anyone with the qualities of a saint would intercede for as many people as possible.
To compare Jesus sitting in Mary's lap with her being the Seat of Wisdom is to compare two concepts that are not related. As far as we know, all children sit in the laps of their mothers or in those who act in that capacity. It is a condition of human life. Being the Seat of Wisdom is not. To make such an argument is foolish.
Then you understand that Catholics don’t teach priestly celibacy as a Biblical or dogmatic principle.
So why bring it up?
Why do we need it?
Who did Jesus marry?
Maybe there is something to devoting oneself completely to one’s calling?
All Faith and Moral dictum's In the Church have a Biblical basis. They are very much explained and laid out on the Internet at Catholic Answers and other Orthodox Websites. The Church has no problem explaining them to whomever cares to ask and do a little research. I am not the Church and care not to discuss them.
Not all traditions of the Church are Dogma.
As per celibacy it has never been a Dogma of the Church it is simply a tradition. Nobody denies that.Most of the apostles where married. Many of the popes where married and many of the priests where married until the 12th Century. It is a relatively recent tradition that Latin Rite priests are always celibate. Or at least take vows of celibacy. It is only 800 years old tradition. Where as the Church is over 2,000 years old.
As far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned it is obviously a genuine religion with well over 1.3 Billion adherents to the Roman Rite alone and several tens of millions more to the other Roman aligned Churches.
Perhaps it is your particular religion that is Whole Cloth horse crap.
Either way I don't much care about your opinion as it is worthless to me. I don't give a crap about it and never will.
Does the current Pope’s grave robbing escapades take away from his infallible super powers?
It doesn’t make a difference. The point is that if you do not want to be a Catholic and still want to call yourself a Christian there are certainly thousands and thousands of ‘Christian’ churches to choose from. Choose one.
At a level so superficial as to be almost silly. ..
1) If you have no access to Logic of God, what logic do you use to say the Seat of Wisdom stuff is ridiculous?
2) If the Wisdom of God is foolishness to men and if you hold yourself to be bound to human logic, maybe the ridiculousness is a point in “my side’s” favor.
More seriously, the big juicy problems are What WAS IHS, and what can we know and how can we reason about Godly matters. Is theology possible and how?
Yes in the normal course of things children sit on their mothers’ laps. So we have to ask what it means that this child was God AND that touching just his garment could heal intractable illness.
Religion is man’s way, that leads to destruction.
I’ll stay with Yehova’s way that leads to eternal life.
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