Posted on 03/31/2014 7:35:15 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
A.) When the vote was taken on July 1870, at the First Vatican Council, with 433 votes in favour (placet) and only 2 against (non placet) against defining as dogma the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra, did those Bishops possess infallibility when (or at least only when) voting? Did any of them keep this infallibility (did it remain with all of them or any of them) after they left and returned home? Did any of these Bishops possess any infallibility at anytime before the vote was cast?
B.) Was Mary's (the Mother of Jesus) mother immaculately conceived as Mary was? Was Mary's grandmother immaculately conceived, too? If so, was there near-infinite regression of these immaculate conceptions? If so, how far back did these immaculate conceptions go? If they did not go back farther than two, why were only two and not say three or four immaculate conceptions needed?
C.) When the Apostle Paul confronted Peter (when Peter was being hypocritical concerning his eating with Jews and Gentiles), did the Apostle Paul possess infallibility when stating that Gentiles did NOT have to be circumcised as a requisite for being a Christian? If so, how many other Apostles possessed infallibility in their actions that were later recorded in the Book of Acts?
D.) During the time of the Western Great Schism of 1378, if papal infallibility was in existence at that time (and only later just codified), how could any person who was not one of the two Popes infallibly know (if they did not possess any measure of infallibility) which POpe was legitimate until this was later worked out? What about that period of time? Were people left "twisting in the wind?"
ROTFL! We lost 25,000 since last week's 60,000, and we're still down 5,000 from just two weeks ago!
By the way Jim, there are at least 3,000 to 8,000 Catholic denominations for those who do desire to follow the Church teachings. Not exactly the claimed unity that Christ promised, is it?
The Catholic Church itself has twelve distinct separate rites all aligned with Rome, Rome is actually the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church.
Some count even more Christian denominations. As many as 41,000. Here is a relatively large list for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
I asked the same question in another thread to various posters and never received a response.
The same source that provided your 35,000 provided me with my 3,000 - 8,000. If we are supposed to accept the one, we also have to accept the other.
Settled dogma? Huh? Reminds me of what Algore says about global warming.
Rather than making things up out of whole cloth and “settled dogma”-—why not instead READ THE BIBLE!!!!!!
Scripture is infallible.
And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.
__________________________________
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.
_______________________________
Logically, unity of faith can only be preserved if the head of the Church is the final authority on a question of faith.
How many people do you figure have been “immaculately conceived” according to the Catholics? Two?
What do you think the term means?
I see 23. All aligned with the pope.
Where do you get 3-8k?
You do understand that the defining attribute is following the pope, not having the word “catholic” in their name?
I got it from the same source that Jim from c-town got his 35,000 from.
You do understand that the defining attribute is following the pope, not having the word “catholic” in their name?
You might define it that way, but that could be changing the standard of measurement. Would either Jim or you care to cite/confirm the standard used by our mutual source to arrive at 35,000?
There are so many Schisms it is hard to count them all. A short list can be found here.
Per Wikipedia:
Note: This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a comprehensible overview of the diversity among denominations of Christianity. As there are reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian denominations (figure includes overlap between countries),[3] many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable.
So it is hard to say what number of churches there are that claim to be ‘Christian” There are dozens of different Mormon based religions and that religion is only a little over 100 years old and many denominations do not accept it as a ‘Christian’ church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
for what it is worth:
There are actually six major traditions in the Catholic Church and around two dozen Churches aligned with Rome. Many Eastern Rite Orthodox Churches have their own leaders but are aligned with Rome and part of the Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church
Major sui iuris Churches
Listed by Liturgical Tradition
*Western Tradition
Latin Church (Roman Catholic Church)
*Byzantine Tradition
Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
Melkite Catholic Church
Romanian Catholic Church
Russian Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
*Antiochian or West Syrian Tradition
Maronite Church
Syriac Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
*Chaldean or East Syrian Tradition
Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
*Armenian Tradition
Armenian Catholic Church
*Alexandrian Tradition
Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
As is your right. No one is making anyone become or remain Catholic.
The standard would have to be authority in teaching.
All of the Catholic Churches (the 23) teach what the pope teaches.
The old line Protestant denominations recognize some shared belief, dividing along lines of schism. I wouldn’t call the LCMS church in this town a separate denomination from the one the next town over.
But the standard “Bible-believing” church believes whatever the local pastor teaches. Until it doesn’t and they fire him.
Each is unique.
You didn’t name 35,000, much less 41,000. I asked you to name them. Can you?
Alex it states that there are as many as 41,000 but only lists those that have a Wikipedia page.
here is the information from the Wikipedia listing.
‘Note: This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a comprehensible overview of the diversity among denominations of Christianity. As there are reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian denominations (figure includes overlap between countries),[3] many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
Do you think “logic” is an enemy of faith?
FWIW,
The idea of papal infallibility was not broached for the first time by the Vatican Council. See, for example, this... written in 418 AD.
109 Although the tradition of the Fathers has attributed such great authority to the Apostolic See that no one would dare to disagree wholly with its judgment, and it has always preserved this judgment by canons and rules, and current ecclesiastical discipline up to this time by its laws pays the reverence which is due to the name of PETER, from whom it has itself descended . . . ; since therefore PETER the head is of such (Treat authority and he has confirmed the subsequent endeavors of all our ancestors, so that the Roman Church is fortified . . . by human as well as by divine laws, and it does not escape you that we rule its place and also hold power of the name itself, nevertheless you know, dearest brethren, and as priests you ought to know, although we have such great authority that no one can dare to retract from our decision, yet we have done nothing which we have not voluntarily referred to your notice by letters . . . not because we did not know what ought to be done, or would do anything which by going against the advantage of the Church, would be displeasing.
From Denzinger, “Sources of Catholic Dogma”, http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma2.php
Again...fwiw
Oh, really? Does that include the human authors of the Bible?
BTW, the premise of the article is incorrect since the Church does not impute infallibility to individuals, not even popes or bishops. Rather it is the Church, established by Jesus Christ and given the authority to teach in his name, which exercises this infallibility. Thus when the bishops gather together with the pope or the pope alone by virtue of his office teach in an official capacity in the name of the Church their teaching office is guarded from error. Apart from this they are all quite fallible.
Now if you are going to ridicule the notion of infallibility in the Catholic Church, will you also ridicule the implied infallibility of Protestant teaching? Without a divinely protected teaching office there is no faith, only opinion. And no, the Bible alone is not enough since we have been arguing about what it really means for the last 500 years.
Yep. And the larger number (whatever it is depending on the day of the week and who quotes it) should be much lower if you take into account the same denomination is listed many times simply based on being all the different countries. I wonder how many of those 3000 - 8000 are found in multiple countries?
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