Papacy / Hierarchy in the Bible

http://thechurchofchristiscatholic.com ^

[NKP_Vet]

The following outline shows that Jesus intended to create a holy, visible Church; complete with a prime minister, a hierarchy, binding authority, and perpetuity—the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

It is important for Protestants to understand some basic facts. Contrary to the modern belief that the Bible is a “blueprint” or “textbook” which explains how a church should be structured, it is a product of the Catholic Church—a compilation of writings that reflect a structure that was already present. As such, the “Bible alone” has no reason to provide fine details of proper ecclesiology; however, proper ecclesiology is detectable. Shortly after Jesus’ resurrection, the Catholic Church wrote lots of letters. The Catholic Church discerned which of those letters were inspired. By the end of the fourth century (Councils of Hippo A.D. 393 and Carthage A.D. 397) the Catholic Church finalized the “table of contents” of the Scriptures and called the entire body of writing “the Bible”. In other words, the Bible would not even exist if the popes and the hierarchy did not exist.

[af_vet_1981]

Per 360, whose website are you linking to (church, denomination, blogger) ?

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Colossians 3:12 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,[e] free; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,<<<

You provided the proof that Paul was not writing to Gentiles. Why would he mention circumcision to a Gentile in that day and age? Circumcision was a Jewish thing. The theme of Paul is loaded with language critical of the traditions of Jews:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Col 2:8)

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" (Col 2:11)

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Col 2:13-16)

"Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him;) 11 And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me." (Col 4:10-11)

The following is a complaint Christ had with the Scribes and Pharisees (Mark 7:7); Paul is simply expounding it:

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Col 2:20-22)

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Titus 1:1 1 Paul, a servant[a] of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began[b] 3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;<<<

Titus was a Jew, and the letter was to him. Pay careful attention to the theme of the book. Not once does Paul mention Gentiles as being part of the elect:

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:10-14)

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14)

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." (Titus 3:9)

I think it important that you understand where I am coming from. Christians are Christians; but in the early days they were all Jews, until Cornelius was converted. Certain Jews, at the end of the Old Covenant Age, were selected to serve with Christ in heaven in "special assignments" (if you will.) Those were the elect. Christ specifically mentioned some of those assignments:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28 KJV)

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Then you dispute that the Gentiles receive the blessings given to Israel, that Gentiles are not full holders of the grace of God and inherit the kingdom because of Christ? Or that God somehow, despite knowing from eternity that the gentiles would be saved did not call them to Himself, that they somehow came to God on their own? Or that the Son receives his own from the Father? Or that the elect of Israel received election by faith?<<<

Jesus made it clear that some would receive preference above the others, such as his disciples who were to sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes. All the scripture we have of mount Sion, the holy temple, and the heavenly city Jerusalem point to the children of Israel as foundations and gates. Not one Gentile is mentioned. But that does not in any way exclude Gentiles, or non-elect Jews, from the beloved city. We are simply not going to rule!

LOL! I am perfectly happy with that. I have done nothing to deserve what He has given me so far; and I am more than happy in my position as a simple servant, serving Him the best way I know how. I certainly don't consider myself a saint (I haven't been stoned to death; I have not hung upside down on a cross; and I still have my head attached to my shoulders--if I recall correctly.) And I know I am not part of the elect because I was not around at the day of Pentecost.

The elect were very few in number, and, as Paul explained, they were those "who first trusted Christ" (Eph 1:4-12.) That leaves out everyone except the earliest Christians.

And who were they? They were Jews (or Israelites) in a very hostile environment. They were those who received the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, or, in Paul's case, directly from the Lord; and they were the last of the miracle workers.

Let's analyze the verse you provided in context. This is the verse:

>>>"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." (Romans 8:33) <<<

What was the context? The following verse explains that Paul is talking about those, like himself, who received the firstfruits of the Spirit:

"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:22-23)

It is reasonable to assume that no one in Rome received the firstfruits of the Spirit. Now look again at 8:33: Paul was asking a question that appears to be an admonishment! Maybe someone at Rome was questioning Paul's "credentials?"

Recall that earlier in our discussion we were in Romans 11, where Paul wrote an admonishment (v. 25) that appeared to be a chastisement against high-mindedness amongst the Gentiles (e.g., boasting by the converted Gentiles against unsaved Israel.)

Anyway, as in all other cases presented so far, in Romans 8 there is no mention of a Gentile being a part of the elect.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Or that God somehow, despite knowing from eternity that the gentiles would be saved did not call them to Himself, that they somehow came to God on their own?<<<

I forgot to discuss this part of your question. If you are like me, you were saved this way:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Rom 10:13-15 KJV)

I am perfectly happy that I was saved that way. I cannot imagine a better way. I believe He found me, because I was not looking for Him. But I don't know for certain. I just thank God it happened.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Christ returns once at an unknown time not preceded by a known period of peace, the Church is under fire until He returns for it; the many passages attesting to these facts are not in figurative or prophetic language but clear ones.<<<

Where does it say Christ “returns” for the Church? I was under the impression the Church was eternal, and the nations of them that are saved walk in the light of it?

Philip

[af_vet_1981]

I do and because I do I know that the church is built on scripture because Christ the Word of God is the cornerstone.

1. Then Rabshakeh stood, and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and said, Hear ye the words of the great king, the king of Assyria. Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you. Neither let Hezekiah make you trust in the Lord, saying, The Lord will surely deliver us: this city shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.
2. And Hezekiah prayed unto the Lord, saying, O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. Incline thine ear, O Lord, and hear; open thine eyes, O Lord, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent to reproach the living God.
3. Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Whereas thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria: This is the word which the Lord hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee. Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.
4. Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.
5. But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
6. Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7. Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

1. 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
2. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
3. Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

1. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Which portions of which Scripture, all of it given to the authors under inspiration of the Spirit of God, was the Word of life referred to by John ?

[xone]

Where does it say Christ “returns” for the Church?

Bridegroom, Bride Christ and is Church.

Romans 8:33-39. 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.[j] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul talks of the elect as the justified. Not long departed Israelites. Plain language. Us, we, indicates his audience, not they them.

I was under the impression the Church was eternal,

Chapter and verse. God is eternal, the church had a beginning, but it will have no end.

[xone]

I believe He found me, because I was not looking for Him. But I don't know for certain.

Romans 5:6-11. Here's your answer.

[xone]

The elect were very few in number, and, as Paul explained, they were those "who first trusted Christ" (Eph 1:4-12.) That leaves out everyone except the earliest Christians.

You appear to be using scripture to justify a doctrine rather than the doctrine come from scripture. The same paragraph has believers adopted as sons. The whole of it is about those Christ saved.

[xone]

The following verse explains that Paul is talking about those, like himself, who received the firstfruits of the Spirit: "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:22-23)

So Paul was using the 'royal we'? Paul and the Holy Spirit were only talking about the people at the time the Epistle was written? You have a doctrine in search of a text to support it. Finding none, whatever text in hand is wrenched and bent and molded to fit the doctrine you want to support. No thanks Phil, that's no better than the Catholics using a snippet of scripture to validate their traditions. This teaching would have been blasted by Paul himself. Sure you have never been to Galatia. Your teachings sure have.

[xone]

The whole of the Bible, Law, Gospel, Prophets, history etc are contained for the purposes of God in Christ Jesus.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>You appear to be using scripture to justify a doctrine rather than the doctrine come from scripture.<<<

I have no doctrine: only the scripture. I have rejected all man-made doctrines. I always let the scripture interpret the scripture. If the scripture doesn’t support it, I reject it. It is as simple as that.

You, on the other hand, appear to have a preconceived doctrine in search of scriptures to support it. The ease in which you rejected Ephesians 1:4-12 is revealing.

>>>The same paragraph has believers adopted as sons. The whole of it is about those Christ saved.<<<

You still do not understand the difference between the elect, and the “saved.” I am saved, but I can never be part of the elect, nor can you, nor can anyone alive after about 70 AD.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Bridegroom, Bride Christ and is Church.<<<

That says absolutely nothing. Can you answer my question, which was: “Where does it say Christ “returns” for the Church?”

>>>Paul talks of the elect as the justified. Not long departed Israelites. Plain language. Us, we, indicates his audience, not they them.<<<

Are you, for Christ’s sake, “being killed all the day long; and are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered?”

>>>Chapter and verse. God is eternal, the church had a beginning, but it will have no end.<<<

Please try to write more clearly. I have no idea what you mean.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Romans 5:6-11. Here’s your answer.<<<

I have read those verses many times. They say nothing about my experience. Why you would think they would is a mystery.

I explained that my experience was like the experience described in Rom 10:13-15. Do you know something about my experience that I don’t?

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>So Paul was using the 'royal we'? Paul and the Holy Spirit were only talking about the people at the time the Epistle was written? You have a doctrine in search of a text to support it. Finding none, whatever text in hand is wrenched and bent and molded to fit the doctrine you want to support. No thanks Phil, that's no better than the Catholics using a snippet of scripture to validate their traditions. This teaching would have been blasted by Paul himself. Sure you have never been to Galatia. Your teachings sure have.<<<

I thought you might be a good debater; but I was mistaken. Sniping at those who make you uncomfortable is not what I expected from you. If you have no scripture to support your ideology, I would recommend you either find some, or abandon your ideology.

BTW, this is James, writing to the scattered twelve tribes (the lost sheep) of the house of Israel, saying essentially the same thing Paul said:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." (Jam 1:18 KJV)

The definition of firstfruit can be found in the online dictionaries.

James is writing to encourage those lost sheep to keep the faith, as he explains:

"Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." (James 5:8)

I seriously doubt James intended his words "draweth nigh" to mean 2000 years. He was expecting the coming of the Lord to happen in his generation, as Christ promised; and that is exactly what happened. That may be why James, and the others, cheerfully risked their lives.

Philip

[af_vet_1981]

The whole of the Bible, Law, Gospel, Prophets, history etc are contained for the purposes of God in Christ Jesus.

1. Did you understand what I meant about the verses I posted and how they differ from each other ?
2. Do you think "the Bible" = "the Word" = God ?

[xone]

You said you thought the church was eternal, I was pointing out your error.

[xone]

Are you, for Christ’s sake, “being killed all the day long; and are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered?”

Figurative language as an individual can't be killed all day. He is killed once.

[xone]

I thought you might be a good debater; but I was mistaken. Sniping at those who make you uncomfortable is not what I expected from you. If you have no scripture to support your ideology, I would recommend you either find some, or abandon your ideology.

There isn't a debate, as I am not trying to convince you and know it. Scripture does support my ideology but you are in the throes of another ideology that can't be argued with because you are set in it. It is a codeword theology as if the Bible is a puzzle and you have the answer for it. Have at it.