Papacy / Hierarchy in the Bible

http://thechurchofchristiscatholic.com ^

[NKP_Vet]

The following outline shows that Jesus intended to create a holy, visible Church; complete with a prime minister, a hierarchy, binding authority, and perpetuity—the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

It is important for Protestants to understand some basic facts. Contrary to the modern belief that the Bible is a “blueprint” or “textbook” which explains how a church should be structured, it is a product of the Catholic Church—a compilation of writings that reflect a structure that was already present. As such, the “Bible alone” has no reason to provide fine details of proper ecclesiology; however, proper ecclesiology is detectable. Shortly after Jesus’ resurrection, the Catholic Church wrote lots of letters. The Catholic Church discerned which of those letters were inspired. By the end of the fourth century (Councils of Hippo A.D. 393 and Carthage A.D. 397) the Catholic Church finalized the “table of contents” of the Scriptures and called the entire body of writing “the Bible”. In other words, the Bible would not even exist if the popes and the hierarchy did not exist.

[ravenwolf]

Then you mean that only the “red letters” in the gospel accounts themselves - which are not even called gospels by the writers, except Mark, and is not even used in John - is the only meaning of “gospel” which is absurd. You basically ignored most of what i said.

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Yes i do mean the red letters in the Gospels and they do make it easier for the beginners to read and to know what Jesus said.

For hundreds of years even after the Bible was printed people had to depend on what the religious leaders told people it said.

So did it help any at all? i am not sure because we can still read the same scripture and come up with a hundred different ideas of what it means.

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When Peter preached the gospel in Acts 10:36ff then he did not quote even one word Christ personally spoke,

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You are right on that point but Peter did Preach Jesus and not himself.

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What you mean how could they be witnesses? They were eye witnesses to a supernatural event that completely changed a man’s mission and left him blind. And that this event was what Paul described was attested to by God, with multitudes of witnesses, as Christ’s claims were.

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This is hearsay or presumed, there is not one witness.

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Paul’s seeing of the Lord was not that of seeing the Lord coming in the clouds in His glory, nor did Moses and the 70 elders actually see God dwelling in all His glorious light, “which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.” (1 Timothy 6:16)

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That is about what i said so why call it superficial reasoning?

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There are no real contradictions except what superficial analysis sees, or what certain souls with an agenda contrive.

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I guess you could call anything superficial or contrived but Paul tells us that he did not go to Jerusalem until after three years, and then went to see peter.

But acts 9: 25, 26, and 27 indicates pretty strongly that Paul went to Jerusalem after leaving Damascus.

Why would Paul wait three years to go to Jerusalem and see the men who walked and talked with Jesus? why would,nt he be anxious to meet them and also the mother of Jesus.

Why would the apostles at Jerusalem be afraid of him after three years? they would surly have heard of him in that time.

Paul went to Jerusalem 14 years later and again his story in Gal2 is much different than the account in acts 15.

In most of the rest that you wrote i can agree.

But i keep my view that Paul may or may not have been called to be an apostle.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Does Romans say that Gentiles are grafted into the tree(Israel)? If so, then the promises to those of the natural tree, the root, avail all the branches. You limit those blessed.<<<

I cannot limit anything. The scripture decides.

In Romans 11 you do not appear to be considering the other parts of the tree, which I believe to be the most important parts: the firstfruit and the root. They are the holy parts, and only through them is the remainder of the tree made holy. And who are the "root?" Certainly not the Gentiles.

I found it ironic that you chose Romans 11 as a reference. That chapter is just another in a long list of references that point to the elect being from the children of Israel. This short passage plainly tells us who the elect are:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." (Rom 11:5-7 KJV)

According to Paul in verses 7, the elect were the remnant. He did not say, "the non-Gentile elect hath obtained it," which would be an appropriate statement if there were both Jews and Gentiles in the elect. But there was no need for any distinction since the elect consisted of only the remnant of the children of Israel, which were parts of the natural root and natural branches.

That election of the faithful remnant closed the chapter on Israel and the old covenant. After the first resurrection in 70 AD, Jesus sat on the throne of David as he predicted in Mat 25:31; and the new covenant has been in full force since. The rest of us are no longer Jews and Gentiles, in his eyes, but potential children.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>NOT Christ reigning...elect reigning with Him...reigns forever. Sounds like Christ does reign at this time, just like He is doing now in heaven with His own.<<<

I believe you misunderstood my point. My point was, Christ reigns forever, in heaven. It is the elect that was being referenced in Rev 20 as “reigning with Christ for 1000 years.” Many have misinterpreted that chapter and declared that Christ will reign 1000 years on earth. I have no idea how they derived that interpretation, but they did.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Christ comes again once at the 'end' to judge the living and the dead. The dead in Christ are in heaven now as their souls. On the last day their bodies will be resurrected and changed. But they are there now. I won't argue chiliasm with you. Christ returns once at an unknown time not preceded by a known period of peace, the Church is under fire until He returns for it; the many passages attesting to these facts are not in figurative or prophetic language but clear ones.<<<

How do you explain two resurrections in Rev 20:

1) This is the first resurrection: Revelation 20, verse 4-6.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6 KJV)

How do you explain the highlighted parts of verse 5 if everyone is resurrected on the last day, as you claim?

Note there is a pause at the end of the 1000 years while the devil was loosed out of his prison to deceive the world and make world-wide war against the Church.

2) This is the second resurrection: Revelation 20, verse 12-15. At least, it certainly appears to be a second resurrection more than 1000 years after the first.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

That scenario: Christ's resurrection, the first resurrection, and the final judgement follow Paul's outline in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26. Paul states the last thing destroyed is death, which is similar to verse 14 above.

Of course, there is that pesky Daniel 12, where only Daniel's people (Israel) are mentioned, and only a partial resurrection is indicated:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)

That passage in Daniel implies there will be another resurrection.

Philip

[af_vet_1981]

Jesus the Cornerstone; Jesus the Word; but the church rests not on scripture or Christ?

I don't understand why you wrote that. I'll repost the same Scripture, and even add two other verses so it is even clearer: Ephesians 2:19-22

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

No one can separate Jesus from his apostles. No one can remove them from the foundation of the church. No one can remove Jesus, the chief cornerstone from his church. Note the NT had not been written yet.

[af_vet_1981]

You are missing the necessary means by which the apostles and prophets, and Jesus Christ Himself established their truth claims as being apostles and prophets, and Jesus Christ.

Yes, they certainly performed signs and wonders. The method was not the foundation however.

[af_vet_1981]

Scripture offers no indication that such authority should ever cease or that succession should ever stop. The apostolic office was given the Spirit that would guide the Church into all truth. The decisions of those men are binding. The apostolic office is the visible teaching authority for the worldwide Church. Entrance into Holy Orders is limited to people who are properly chosen.

Have you considered what appears to be a requirement, spoken by the Apostle Peter, that an Apostle had to have personally witnessed Jesus from hisbaptism until his resurrection (Paul was an exception though, Jesus having appeared to him). There were perhaps fewer than two hundred who qualified. Acts 1:15-26

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

[daniel1212]

Yes, they certainly performed signs and wonders. The method was not the foundation however.

They also "reasoned from the Scriptures, but since all you made was an assertion denial, it must be asked upon what basis did they establish their truth claims?

[xone]

Note the NT had not been written yet.

Jesus wasn't the Word in the OT?

[af_vet_1981]

They also "reasoned from the Scriptures, but since all you made was an assertion denial, it must be asked upon what basis did they establish their truth claims?

1. Jesus did at least four things, 1) appealed to Tenach, 2) spoke new Scripture as the very Word of God, YHVH in the flesh, 3) performed signs and wonders prophesied of the Messiah, and 4) performed miracles whose innate goodness and power witnessed his compete immersion in the Spirit of God without measure.
2. The Jewish Apostles 1) appealed to Tanach, 2) taught with the authority of the Spirit of God in an oral tradition, 3)performed signs and wonders, and 4) left us the books that comprise the NT canon.
3. The Jewish Prophets 1) spoke and wrote their prophecies, 2) performed signs and wonders, and 3) taught with the authority of the Spirit of God.

[xone]

Colossians 3:12 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,[e] free; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

Titus 1:1 1 Paul, a servant[a] of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began[b] 3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;

[af_vet_1981]

Jesus wasn't the Word in the OT?

You know he is. Every time God speaks, there he is. This is not to be confused with every word in the OT, unless of course you hold that God spoke every word in the OT.

[xone]

Then you dispute that the Gentiles receive the blessings given to Israel, that Gentiles are not full holders of the grace of God and inherit the kingdom because of Christ? Or that God somehow, despite knowing from eternity that the gentiles would be saved did not call them to Himself, that they somehow came to God on their own? Or that the Son receives his own from the Father? Or that the elect of Israel received election by faith?

Romans 8:33 ff Was Paul preaching to the elect of Israel here or to the Gentiles?

[xone]

I have no idea how they derived that interpretation, but they did.

Probably the same way that they think prior to the 2nd coming, there will be peace on earth for a thousand years. Christ comes on more time. There is no known period prior else His coming could be known.

[af_vet_1981]

Amen to that, but some popes declare that Mary can save.

I doubt they did that, but the Virgin of Israel will always point you to the Holy One of Israel who can save you.

[xone]

How do you explain two resurrections in Rev 20:

The first occurs when a believer dies in Christ. His soul is in heaven. On them the second death has no power. The second resurrection is for the dead in sin on the last day.

[xone]

You know he is.

I do and because I do I know that the church is built on scripture because Christ the Word of God is the cornerstone.

[ravenwolf]

The whole of the Bible is about Christ.

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You got it.

[daniel1212]

Jesus did at least four things, 1) appealed to Tenach, 2) spoke new Scripture as the very Word of God, YHVH in the flesh, 3) performed signs and wonders prophesied of the Messiah, and 4) performed miracles whose innate goodness and power witnessed his compete immersion in the Spirit of God without measure.

Amen! But you mean they did not submit to the Scribes and Pharisees, seeing as they sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, as the historical stewards of Scripture? For RCs tell us we must submit to Rome, based upon the premise that she is the supreme magisterium, being historical stewards of Scripture.

[daniel1212]

Amen to that, but some popes declare that Mary can save.

I doubt they did that, but the Virgin of Israel will always point you to the Holy One of Israel who can save you.

You have little reason to doubt most any attribute or appellation has been or can be ascribed or given to the Mary of Catholicism .

“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited." "the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God." "there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose". "After God, it is impossible to think of anything greater than His Mother" “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus.""she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin." "It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins," "We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman". "As Mother of the Word Incarnate, Mary was elevated to a certain equality with the Heavenly Father." More and sources .

And bowing down to a statue of a mortal and beseeching them for favors would be hard to explain away in the Bible as only "hyperdulia."

And which is never seen among the hundreds of prayers in Scripture , nor even one prayer to anyone else in Heaven by the Lord, except by pagans.